S5-E16: Will Vanaria of Metalwerx, Polishing Tips, & Merard

Join co-hosts Mark Nelson and Fiona Morrison as they explore the art of polishing and share invaluable tips and tricks, diving into the best uses of specific Merard compounds. Then, Massachusetts-based jeweler, metalsmith, and art instructor at Metalwerx, Will Vanaria, joins the conversation to discuss his distinctive work, passion for using alternative materials in jewelry, and career.

Use code RioMerard to get 10% off all Merard products through 12/31/24.

Transcript

Fiona
Hello and welcome to the For the Love of Jewelers Podcast. I'm your host, Fiona Morrison, and joining me today is our co-host, Mark Nelson. We're thrilled to have an incredible guest with us today, woven in award winning metal smith and educator joining us all the way from Waltham, Massachusetts. Will is a studio manager and an instructor at Metalwerx, as well as the owner of WMV metal smithing.

00;00;31;02 - 00;00;50;07
Fiona
Our conversation today will dive into Will's unique perspective on jewelry, where he views art as a powerful tool to question, critique, and even humorously challenge the bizarre world we navigate. And I think you're going to love hearing his thoughts before we get to our interview with Will. I'd like to talk a little bit about our sponsor for this month, Morad.

00;00;50;09 - 00;01;09;26
 Mark
Polishing compounds. Oh, yeah. So let's talk. Yeah. Let's talk. Because these are the compounds are amazing. Yeah. I mean, I want cause right now. And just, like, throw some words out, but they are truly a game changer. So I went through the whole training on that and everything. Have you used them before?

00;01;09;29 - 00;01;25;00
Fiona
I've used them a little bit here in house with some of our production that we were doing. Yeah. They're such a nice material because you're not going through them as fast, which, when you're working on heavy duty production, is a big concern.

00;01;25;02 - 00;01;27;05
 Mark
Do you know what color you're using?

00;01;27;08 - 00;01;51;16
Fiona
For the most part, I've ended up using the yellow. I it's kind of. We jump around a little bit just because there's so many different pieces and parts and metals that we do in-house here, that it just depends on what's on hand and what you're using. But you can always really sort of tell a difference between using a broad compound versus using a lot of our other compounds that we have because, yeah.

00;01;51;16 - 00;01;52;20
 Mark
And, you know, instantly.

00;01;52;20 - 00;02;00;04
Fiona
Instantly, instantly, you know, the time saver on it too, because it polishes so fast. It's so clean, so clean.

00;02;00;04 - 00;02;09;24
 Mark
And I joking around with our guy Phil and yeah. And it's like really it took more time to change out the buff than actually do the polishing. You know what I mean?

00;02;09;28 - 00;02;11;10
Fiona
Yeah. Putting on all your gloves.

00;02;11;13 - 00;02;21;09
 Mark
Yeah. And he was telling me a story about one customer, and Phil would not let him place the order without getting these compounds. Oh, really? It's taking him, like, three hours to do these skull rings, you know?

00;02;21;10 - 00;02;21;28
Fiona
Oh.

00;02;22;01 - 00;02;39;22
 Mark
And, so he got a phone message when he got back to work a couple days later, and the customer's like. Phil, I need to talk to you about these things right now. And Phil's like, oh, my gosh, here it comes. And the guy was like, these are amazing. Why didn't you tell me first? You know, why didn't you tell me sooner?

00;02;39;25 - 00;02;40;19
 Mark
You know.

00;02;40;22 - 00;02;48;27
Fiona
Yeah. Did he tell you the story about how he had a whole cabinet full of white diamond? White diamond? Yeah, that he just tossed out as soon as he.

00;02;48;29 - 00;02;51;13
 Mark
He shed a single tear. You know, because there's an end of an error.

00;02;51;16 - 00;02;55;23
Fiona
I know, and he's starting to, like, tear up as he's telling the story to.

00;02;55;25 - 00;03;13;01
 Mark
Least 25 bars are like like diamonds, though. But I know, Yeah. Just watching those things in action. From, you know, taking a rough cast, you know, right off the tree and into a high polish within a couple minutes. Yeah. You know, that's two bucks, two compounds.

00;03;13;04 - 00;03;13;19
Fiona


00;03;13;22 - 00;03;16;29
 Mark
And it's like wow. And the cleanup the cleanup is amazing.

00;03;17;00 - 00;03;33;05
Fiona
Yeah. Because you're not standing there either putting something through an ultrasonic for like 15 minutes and then standing there with a steam cleaner trying to get off all that compound and build up. It's there's not much that's left. So there's a lot less you're trying to kit off after.

00;03;33;05 - 00;03;40;00
 Mark
And what's in there is water soluble. Yeah. So I mean I used to use Windex to get the compound off.

00;03;40;02 - 00;03;44;25
Fiona
I have heard horror stories of people doing that with reactions on skin.

00;03;44;27 - 00;03;49;21
 Mark
Yeah. My I never had one of those, but that's good. It worked, you know, rinsed them really well.

00;03;49;24 - 00;03;51;10
Fiona
So good.

00;03;51;12 - 00;03;57;17
 Mark
It's it's really amazing stuff. You know, that company, are so attentive to detail.

00;03;57;18 - 00;03;58;04
Fiona
Yes.

00;03;58;10 - 00;04;28;26
 Mark
You know, everything is engineered to work together. You know, and so that's one of the reasons why they make their own baths is that, each of the bust they make is designed for certain compounds. Yeah. And they manufacture their own cloth, their own buffing buff wheels. They put them together. So everything is related. You know, and I did ask Phil, I said kind of you this is one of my old buffs and yeah certainly it's just going to work a little bit better with their, their buffs because they've been mated together.

00;04;29;03 - 00;04;29;15
 Mark


00;04;29;20 - 00;04;55;21
Fiona
So yeah one thing that I would say really is the stand out, if I had to describe it in one word is detail. There's so much thought and effort put into making sure first of all the buffs themselves what's coming along with it, how you're using it, how condensed it is. It's so focused to save as much effort as possible to keep things as clean and smooth as possible.

00;04;55;24 - 00;04;59;08
Fiona
That's something that's really the main stand out of it.

00;04;59;12 - 00;05;10;21
 Mark
Now little, little of the compound that you use. Yeah. It's a fraction of what. Yeah I would use for like Red Rouge. You know, I'm I'm doing red rouge. You know, I'm loading up that buff, like, every couple of minutes.

00;05;10;27 - 00;05;28;17
Fiona
Because it breaks down as you're using it into small particles. So you, it just keeps lasting and lasting. It's not you're not using it. It's flying off your wheel and you're replacing it and having to keep layered on there. Yeah. It lasts its entirety of how long it is on that wheel.

00;05;28;18 - 00;05;36;13
 Mark
Well, I think if I ever decide to polish again, it's I don't know if I will. I'm definitely getting a kit. Yeah, the kit is all you need.

00;05;36;16 - 00;05;37;13
Fiona
It's everything. Yeah.

00;05;37;14 - 00;05;43;02
 Mark
You know, unless you're doing some specific things, maybe, like with stainless and some other exotic materials.

00;05;43;03 - 00;05;57;03
Fiona
Because I know they work on platinum, too. The even that orange is going to work on platinum. So you're not getting something that's a separate buffing compound you're using for that specifically. Yeah. You can use those for compounds on basically everything.

00;05;57;05 - 00;06;02;29
 Mark
Platinum is horrible to polish. I mean, like without those emerald compounds, it's just takes so long.

00;06;03;00 - 00;06;03;26
Fiona
Yeah. Yeah.

00;06;03;28 - 00;06;10;02
 Mark
You got to go through all the grit style. All the sandpaper. Yeah. And it's just a big time commitment for sure.

00;06;10;05 - 00;06;17;28
Fiona
Really? Any buffing is. Yeah. It is one of the longest single processes on a single part of the process.

00;06;18;00 - 00;06;33;25
 Mark
Yeah. So, you know, we'll you talk. We were talking to Will, and, he and I are talking and I, I think I'm, I don't know if I've shared this story before, but I actually took a piece of silver jewelry to the ultimate high shine. Yeah. I mean, it's like mirror reflection. Oh, wow. And I'll never do it again.

00;06;33;28 - 00;06;53;24
 Mark
You know. That was just too much for me, you know? So. Yeah. And honestly, my design is sick for my work. I love the matte finishes. And I might take a little tiny component and polish that to get that contrast of finish. And I was talking to Phil and I said, can you use these compounds with the flex shaft and all those those tools.

00;06;53;27 - 00;06;56;08
 Mark
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great.

00;06;56;10 - 00;07;18;19
Fiona
Yeah. So in fact, it's so funny because I think the first time I ever used this, I was helping out in customization in Lynn, our master mold cutter. He is one of the most astounding people I've worked with. I was there and I was starting the polishing you as you do with silver. I was starting to really, like push into it, really trying to get that polish.

00;07;18;20 - 00;07;42;11
Fiona
And he was like, no, no, just just hold it there, just let it go light. And I was like, oh my God, that was a game changer. Oh yeah. One ring. Yeah, you're pushing it. That's not that much. But if you're doing a whole a whole chunk of items, you start feeling that on your shoulder pretty quickly. Yeah, you start losing finger, feelings, and your fingers are feeling the vibration getting burned.

00;07;42;12 - 00;07;43;00
 Mark
Exactly.

00;07;43;01 - 00;07;43;05
Fiona
Yeah.

00;07;43;05 - 00;07;44;12
 Mark
With metal stuff heating up.

00;07;44;19 - 00;07;45;08
Fiona
Yep.

00;07;45;10 - 00;07;56;21
 Mark
So, yeah. Like pressure, I mean. Yeah, right. Wheel rotation speed. Yeah. Compounds. Buffs. I things combined and connected. So I look forward to using it for sure.

00;07;56;26 - 00;08;05;18
Fiona
Yeah.

00;08;05;20 - 00;08;10;18
Fiona
Welcome. And joining us today is Wilton area with Metalwerx. Welcome will.

00;08;10;24 - 00;08;11;15
Will
Hello.

00;08;11;17 - 00;08;16;17
Fiona
Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into jewelry making and teaching.

00;08;16;19 - 00;08;32;01
Will
Yeah. So, I got a jewelry making because I went to a vocational high school. And one of my teachers there, Sarah Doremus, was actually a person who was also connected to Metal Works, the school of jewelry, and she was teaching a class on jewelry making. And, back then I was like, in auto body.

00;08;32;01 - 00;08;47;16
Will
So I was learning how to do welding and stuff like that. So I liked jewelry a lot more because it's more manageable. One thing that I've found out about myself is that if I have a large project, isn't that when it's like, physically large, I will hyper focus on like one detail of it and then never get it done.

00;08;47;19 - 00;09;01;20
Will
Whereas jewelry, I still do. I still do the same thing, but it's more manageable. But point is, I took a class with her. And then I ended up going to mass art. And then that is what sent me down this horrible dark path.

00;09;01;23 - 00;09;09;01
Fiona
Well, you chose the right industries. And, yeah, most of jewelry making is hyper fixating on one thing. Yeah.

00;09;09;04 - 00;09;10;00
Will
Oh, yeah.

00;09;10;03 - 00;09;29;02
 Mark
That's awesome man. Well, let's talk about myself. How I got started is I went to Northern Arizona University for as an undergrad, and I was going to be a high school teacher. Right. And I was focused on illustration and my, my scholarship was I was studio tech for the jewelry department. And, so I spent like two years as a studio tech.

00;09;29;02 - 00;09;30;27
 Mark
And I think that's the job that you do, right? Yeah.

00;09;30;27 - 00;09;33;28
Will
I'm the I'm the studio manager of the metalwork school of jewelry right now. Right.

00;09;33;28 - 00;09;54;24
 Mark
The things that you learn doing that job. Oh my God. Yeah, right. You fix everything you're teaching. I mean, from the get go. And one day I. I had to take my first jewelry class, and my professor was like, you know, Mark, you're pretty good at this. You should change your major. I'm like, okay. And that, I mean, just a simple little decision like that, you know, it can totally change the path of your life.

00;09;54;27 - 00;09;59;27
 Mark
So, it's really cool to have you here. I've been a big fan of yours for a long time.

00;10;00;02 - 00;10;01;07
Will
Thank you.

00;10;01;09 - 00;10;11;11
 Mark
I know that we did an article with you, but two years ago, back in 22. Yeah. Yeah. So, I've been following your work and your videos, and, So I'm really happy to hear you're here, man.

00;10;11;13 - 00;10;26;01
Will
Yeah, I'm busy here. It's a very interesting, place. Now, I'm from Boston, so, like, as I said earlier, it's, when you're there, it's like, surrounded by buildings and you can't really see that far. But, like, from my hotel here, I. It's just I can see everything for miles.

00;10;26;01 - 00;10;29;27
 Mark
And what you're like on the third floor or something, right? Ninth floor. Okay. Even better.

00;10;29;27 - 00;10;31;01
Will
It's crazy.

00;10;31;04 - 00;10;33;06
Fiona
Probably one of the tallest buildings in town, then. Yeah.

00;10;33;07 - 00;10;33;27
Will
Oh, yeah.

00;10;33;29 - 00;10;49;28
 Mark
So one of the one of our projects here today is to figure out if you're going to be red or green. Gotcha. So, for those who are listening or watching for the first time, New Mexico is all about the Chile, right? So we were at Chilean green Chile. So by the end of the day, we're going to find out which one you are.

00;10;50;01 - 00;11;00;17
Will
I look forward to it. You cannot find spicy stuff in Boston half the time. Like it caps it mild and it just aggravates me. Unless, you know, like one specific store to go to, it's I don't know.

00;11;00;20 - 00;11;04;16
 Mark
All right, so we'll send you home, please. We'll send you home with some, you know. Do know Louis.

00;11;04;18 - 00;11;05;04
Will
I don't.

00;11;05;04 - 00;11;21;07
 Mark
Actually. Oh. So he teaches at new. He's the guy at New Approach, right? He used to come out and teach classes, and before he would leave home, he would go to the grocery store and load up a suitcase of green, frozen green Chile. And by the time you got home, it was still frozen. So we'll load you up with Jim's chili.

00;11;21;09 - 00;11;23;06
Will
Excellent. Yeah.

00;11;23;08 - 00;11;25;00
 Mark
If you got some questions for for Will.

00;11;25;03 - 00;11;31;24
Fiona
Yeah. So tell us a little bit about Metalwerx. How you got into teaching from being a bench worker, too.

00;11;31;26 - 00;11;32;07
Will
Right.

00;11;32;08 - 00;11;33;05
Fiona
Teaching itself.

00;11;33;05 - 00;11;53;16
Will
So, yeah. Metalwerx is a nonprofit arts school in Waltham, Massachusetts. And I keep saying Boston because if I say Waltham, no one knows where that is. It's about 40 minutes west of Boston. Okay. But, yeah, we were a small jewelry school there, I believe was started in 1998, I believe, and then moved for the current location in Waltham into 2006, something like that.

00;11;53;16 - 00;12;11;00
Will
I remember when I was 16, I did actually go to Metalwerx with Sarah and like, David Baird cast a ring for me when I was there. Okay. So like, it's been around at least since then. But yeah, we have a bunch of different topics ranging from, you know, the standard jewelry, one jewelry to a fair to just more specialized topics.

00;12;11;00 - 00;12;27;29
Will
I think we're doing, chain mail coming up. But during the summer, we have, like, an insane amount of talent come down like we have, Michael Boyd come down. We have people like Michael. Good. And they just, like, teach these five day intensive classes that sell out immediately. And Wolf came down to she was great, great K-12.

00;12;28;01 - 00;12;31;01
Will
And Wolf, she does all my stuff. She's great. Yeah.

00;12;31;03 - 00;12;36;12
Fiona
Very cool. And how would somebody go about signing up for these classes? It sounds like there's a lot more also now virtually.

00;12;36;13 - 00;12;42;27
Will
Yes. That's. I'm actually one of the people who helped them, create the virtual program just due to, like, the absolute madness that was 20, 20.

00;12;43;00 - 00;12;43;16
 Mark
Oh, yeah.

00;12;43;24 - 00;12;57;22
Will
One weird thing that people don't really know is that when I was in college, there was a brief moment where I was about to go into like audio video editing. So I have like a lot of that, like AV brain rot going on. So I took a lot of those skills and we, you know, developed a virtual curriculum.

00;12;57;22 - 00;13;03;20
Will
But yeah, if you want to like, go to any of those, metal work com and that's spelled w e r x.

00;13;03;23 - 00;13;07;29
 Mark
Yeah, yeah. I actually signed up for a class with Matthew Cimini. Yeah.

00;13;08;01 - 00;13;08;12
Will
Oh.

00;13;08;14 - 00;13;32;00
 Mark
Yeah. Sure. Nate, did a stamp, class with him online. Oh, yeah. The quality was amazing. And, you know, I've been working with metal looks for since its inception. I think Karen Christianson, Karen Christianson started it. And, you know, I've been there since day one, and, the available the the amount of online content and the quality of it is amazing.

00;13;32;07 - 00;13;54;07
 Mark
Oh, yeah. I literally sat in my garage with my tools and did the class, you know, with Matthew, and it was amazing. And I'm always shopping for classes. I gotta take one, torch enameling here pretty soon. Because I gotta get that into my classes. So. Yeah, definitely check out Metalwerx.com, and, the, the amount of classes you guys offer is amazing.

00;13;54;07 - 00;13;54;16
 Mark
It's a.

00;13;54;16 - 00;14;09;08
Will
Lot. Yeah. But to your point, your question earlier about how I got, like, into teaching, I went to undergrad at mass Art, and I thought that I wanted to be a bench jeweler. Then I did that, and I realized, oh, my goodness, I do not want this.

00;14;09;10 - 00;14;09;17
 Mark
Yeah.

00;14;09;18 - 00;14;32;05
Will
It's, I ended up going to grad school at a UMass Dartmouth that's in New Bedford, and I did like a soft minor in teaching there just because, like, I enjoyed, like, spreading this, this trade out to people. And after graduating, I had a full time job as a polisher. But then I moonlit as a teacher, at Metalwerx until 2022, I believe.

00;14;32;05 - 00;14;33;27
Will
Until they hired me on full time.

00;14;33;29 - 00;14;38;16
 Mark
Okay. Yeah, a is it? Wow. You did bench Julie for a while.

00;14;38;18 - 00;14;43;03
Will
Oh, yes. Yeah. Through various different companies, in Massachusetts.

00;14;43;05 - 00;14;50;11
 Mark
And, I did that too for definitely a couple of years. And, you know, the whole month of December, I worked like 24 days straight.

00;14;50;12 - 00;14;58;29
Will
Oh, yeah. One place referred to that had like two time stamps. They were like AC and BC before Christmas and after Christmas.

00;14;59;01 - 00;15;13;06
 Mark
Right. So, you did a lot of different jobs and one of them was polishing, and you were telling me earlier, before we even get started on this, that you had a lot of great tips for that. Yes. Give us some, man. Give us. Because polishing for me is is the worst.

00;15;13;08 - 00;15;33;19
Will
I would say polishing is 90% like preparing it. Like if you have a piece and you didn't sand it correctly prior to that, it's going to end up looking terrible when you put the cutting compound than the, finishing compound on. I whenever I teach like that class for like, the jewelry one class. So, oftentimes that's like the number one thing that students have trouble with is that they will sand it.

00;15;33;19 - 00;15;45;14
Will
They will miss like, a scratch somewhere, and then like, it just gets accentuated. Yeah. The mirror finish is just a very difficult thing to pull off. Right? Because you will see every single micro flaw in the entire piece.

00;15;45;14 - 00;15;46;13
 Mark
Every time and every.

00;15;46;13 - 00;15;52;12
Will
Single time. But as far as tips go, where do I start?

00;15;52;14 - 00;15;53;26
 Mark
You were talking about compounds earlier.

00;15;53;26 - 00;15;56;17
Will
Oh, yes. Compounds. Yeah. Yeah. So. Oh, goodness.

00;15;56;20 - 00;15;57;24
 Mark


00;15;57;26 - 00;16;21;16
Will
I'm just thinking about one job I worked. For a while. They were a manufacturer that did flutes. As in, like, the the musical instrument. Oh, yeah. Because for some reason, there are, like 5 or 6 different companies in Massachusetts that do that, like, they manufacture them on site. I won't name which one it is. But while I was there, so first we did the triple tuning.

00;16;21;16 - 00;16;34;27
Will
We did the, traditional like triple in rouge ring. And one of the things that they did that helped a lot, but seems kind of dangerous, is they dipped it in kerosene, like they would dip the compound in kerosene and then put it on the wheel, and that made it just work better.

00;16;35;04 - 00;16;35;17
 Mark
Okay.

00;16;35;18 - 00;16;57;07
Will
Although I'm told that that is not terribly safe because apparently at one point in the 1980s, they had this, like, ventilation system, like all the buffing machines are hooked up with this one vent. And back then people were allowed to smoke in the building. Oh, yeah. So one of the polishers just, like, tossed a cigaret into the vent and just lit up the entire thing because it was a lot of like, stray hairs from the buffing wheels and a bunch of kerosene everywhere.

00;16;57;07 - 00;17;01;29
 Mark
My gosh. All right, that's crazy. Is there any particular compound that you liked?

00;17;02;01 - 00;17;09;20
Will
So I will say I hate Tripoli and Rouge, right? Mainly because Rouge is the dusty, most horrible thing on the planet.

00;17;09;20 - 00;17;10;19
 Mark
And it sticks everything.

00;17;10;19 - 00;17;23;29
Will
It sticks to everything. Like when I was at that company, the room that I was in was just a dedicated polishing room, and it looked like the surface of Mars. Like every single day I would come home and like, have to shower off and look like that one scene, and it's like, over the blood goes down the drain.

00;17;24;01 - 00;17;33;12
Will
It was not great. But guys, right now the compound I like a lot is a Luxor. Luxor. Yeah. Made by Mourad Red. They're a French company.

00;17;33;13 - 00;17;34;21
 Mark
Very.

00;17;34;24 - 00;17;44;24
Will
And I just like the fact that you can get a pretty comparable finish. I think, objectively speaking, Tripoli and Rouge may still give a better finish. If you're, like, really like looking at it, like, under a microscope or something.

00;17;44;24 - 00;17;45;22
 Mark
Right.

00;17;45;25 - 00;17;49;20
Will
But this stuff is like so much less hassle and it works.

00;17;49;20 - 00;17;50;21
 Mark
And you don't need as much.

00;17;50;21 - 00;17;51;28
Will
You don't need as much. That's the other thing.

00;17;52;04 - 00;18;25;01
Fiona
Yeah, yeah, it's a much denser build of the compound itself on that, mentioning that you've worked with flute making and then also in the jewelry. Yeah. Are there tips and tricks that you've run into working on considerably larger pieces as opposed to smaller pieces? Because I've definitely say that polishing something that's a larger surface is a much more in-depth process of figuring out the correct balance of high shine and not being there for 20, 40, 50 hours.

00;18;25;01 - 00;18;46;09
Will
Yeah, it's a Herculean task. And like the hard thing about doing like larger stuff is if you have any like inconsistency on the surface, you'll notice it. Like for instance, if you have a long straight bar and you have like a dent anywhere from like, say, a errant polishing wheel or something, that dent becomes super noticeable when you shift it back and forth in light.

00;18;46;11 - 00;18;52;07
Will
So as far as tips and tricks go on, like larger stuff, I don't know, it's.

00;18;52;09 - 00;19;13;28
Fiona
There's just the difference of it because obviously you've had that experience, which is something that. Not everyone I have seen has tried. Yeah. And so sometimes that's an intimidating thing of saying, hey, it's one thing to polish a ring, it's another thing when you're getting up to something that might be a cuff, a pendant, a bigger thing than that.

00;19;13;29 - 00;19;17;07
Fiona
Yeah. So that's if you have any tips on that.

00;19;17;07 - 00;19;34;22
Will
I do actually for like specifically for like cylindrical objects, like flutes. The first thing is that wheels like, like those like, silicone wheels are your enemy because they will like, create waves and ripples. When I worked at that flute place, the way that we would actually start polishing things is we would actually use a hand file for like a very, like large majority of it.

00;19;34;22 - 00;19;55;27
Will
Because if we give you a nice flat even plan and we went up to like a number eight cut on the file, which we had like special order from a company to get that, and that worked really well because that would make sure that it stays straight, it stays flat. It doesn't like have any ripples or curves. And then from there we would then, you know, go to Tripoli, then Rouge and yeah, it was it's very difficult.

00;19;55;27 - 00;20;18;22
Will
I will say that like the hardest part about like larger stuff. Is it catching on the buffing wheel. Yeah. Because when you get to that scale you need to use a much larger wheel, which is like a recipe for like problems to happen. I have like I have a picture somewhere. I would probably we probably can't show it, but it's a picture of a, solid gold flute that's been like junked because it's like skirt and like a crush down the middle.

00;20;18;24 - 00;20;33;12
Will
And that came from somebody when they were polishing on the buffing wheel, because these things are like large half or no. Sorry. These were one horsepower buffing wheels. And you'd like to stand up and like, you know, do the buffing on them. And if you've ever seen a flute body, before, they're all put together before they're strung.

00;20;33;15 - 00;20;49;01
Will
They have this like this, like little, stuff sticking out of them, like the little holes for, like, all the little parts and those catch. Yeah. Like you would not believe. And so what happened was he was using the wheel and then it just, like, caught and then, like, jumped out of his hand and then just, like, smacked against the wall.

00;20;49;03 - 00;21;07;07
 Mark
Man, I got so many stories like. Yeah. When I was working the bench my first time, in Flagstaff, my boss gave me a little pendant and he said, go buff it on. Go. Buffett. Right. And it caught and just literally exploded. Oh, yeah, I mean, it was gone. And the customer was on the way in and he looked at me.

00;21;07;07 - 00;21;23;02
 Mark
He was so mad. He goes, you get to tell him, I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want to tell you do it. And so I had to go out there, tell the costumer and I thought, dude, man, my bad. I'm so sorry. My boss is he's he's working. I get it in a replacement like right now, you know.

00;21;23;05 - 00;21;33;10
 Mark
So that's one story, right? And then I was at grad school at Texas Tech, and, I had a guy he was, polishing an aluminum washer, right? Like a six inch diameter. Right.

00;21;33;10 - 00;21;34;08
Will
Oh, goodness.

00;21;34;10 - 00;21;49;09
 Mark
And this poor guy, man. Yeah. Couple months prior to this incident, he lost his two fingers in a on the table saw. Oh, and so he got him reattached. He rehabilitated, and now he's polishing this washer. Right. All right, so you see where this is going?

00;21;49;09 - 00;21;49;29
Will
I do.

00;21;50;01 - 00;22;10;16
 Mark
Fortunately. And so literally this this buffing wheel wrapped up that washer wrapped up the same two fingers and seized the motor. And thank God I was there as the studio tech because that's our job, right? I got him untangled and we got him back to the hospital. You know, he kept the fingers with thank God. Yeah, but things like that happen in a split second.

00;22;10;20 - 00;22;32;02
 Mark
Yeah. You know, and you have to be so focused. And when I teach class, you know, we go through all the safety stuff and, I point out the flex shaft and, like, guys, we have explosive gases in here. Technically, they can explode, right? Not the most dangerous thing in the shop. This flex shaft is the most dangerous thing.

00;22;32;02 - 00;22;32;24
Will
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

00;22;32;24 - 00;22;51;15
 Mark
Because it's unassuming, you know, you get that there and you're doing your lip polishing or you're doing it and you're just not paying attention. And things happen super fast. Yeah. You know, so yeah. Polishing, I think you're right. I mean, files and sandpaper, are the most important preliminary things. Yeah.

00;22;51;16 - 00;23;08;15
Will
Also like work holding specifically. That's another like, part of it. Speaking of, like, smaller stuff, one of the places I work, the way that we would, polish, like, small, pendants, like, small little, like charms like this. Big or small. Yeah. Is. Excuse me. We would, take a piece of leather and then hold it, like, such and then get a paperclip.

00;23;08;18 - 00;23;09;05
 Mark
Yeah, and, like.

00;23;09;05 - 00;23;29;23
Will
Hook it into the, the charm and, like, hold it against the leather, against the buffing club, because it's just a lot safer that way. And you also avoid, like, you know, sanding your fingers off. Yeah. But yeah, holding onto the piece a specific way is important. Also, just like the speed of the wheel and like, I think a mistake that a lot of people make is they think more horsepower equal, more better.

00;23;30;00 - 00;23;34;04
Will
Yeah. Whereas like, I think a lower horsepower machine does a better job.

00;23;34;06 - 00;23;34;25
 Mark
Okay.

00;23;34;28 - 00;23;37;10
Will
Just because it doesn't like, like at the. Yeah.

00;23;37;10 - 00;23;37;23
 Mark
Like a half.

00;23;37;23 - 00;23;43;23
Will
Horse. Like a half horse. Yeah. Like when I have it, my in my house, the, buffing machine that I have is like a half horsepower, and it's perfectly fine.

00;23;43;26 - 00;23;50;01
 Mark
Yeah, yeah, it's all about angle and pressure. Yes. You know, you don't. You don't need to dig into it. Yeah. You know.

00;23;50;03 - 00;23;57;19
Fiona
And even that changes depending on the type of metal you're working with. Oh yeah. Gold versus silver. You're working it very differently with that pressure and platinum.

00;23;57;19 - 00;23;58;01
 Mark
Oh yeah.

00;23;58;04 - 00;24;03;19
Will
I will say sterling silver is probably the most miserable metal to polish.

00;24;03;21 - 00;24;04;08
 Mark
In my personal.

00;24;04;08 - 00;24;05;06
Will
Experience.

00;24;05;09 - 00;24;18;05
 Mark
Because, you know, I did it. I did that once. My time is like, I'm going to do a project and I'm going to get the mirror finish on this sterling silver. Right? Just to say I could do it and I did it, and I've never done it again. Because the minute you get it, it goes away. Yep.

00;24;18;06 - 00;24;26;24
 Mark
The silver starts tarnishing, or a little whisper doves, you know, sits on the surface and scratches it. Yep. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00;24;26;28 - 00;24;41;25
Will
When I worked that place, I did flutes. A lot of them were sterling silver, their quote unquote budget line. It was a flute that cost around six grand. That was all sterling. And yeah, the moment that you, like, put the mirror finish on it, you have to wear gloves to handle it. You have to like, use a steam cleaner to clean it.

00;24;42;03 - 00;24;47;16
Will
You can't touch it. You can't look at it. You can't breathe on it because it will scratch with like zero provocation.

00;24;47;18 - 00;24;49;22
 Mark
Did you ever work on a R gentium flutes?

00;24;49;22 - 00;25;05;22
Will
I have not, no. No. This place was like, very traditional and old school. But I will say, actually, that does remind me of one thing that I speaking of, like tips, one thing that has happened a lot, but I've noticed is, if you're using a buffing wheel, you'll end up with these, like, little pockmarks all over the piece.

00;25;05;24 - 00;25;29;09
Will
And if those aren't, porosity, sometimes what's happening is that the buffing wheel has been loaded up with so much compound that's slapping into the piece and, like, like digging up little bits of it. And you have to, like, basically run the wheel and like, you know, cut off those stray hairs on the buffing wheel. Although it does remind me of a, so the guy I worked with at that flew place, he was like from Russia, like Soviet Union era jeweler.

00;25;29;10 - 00;25;39;25
Will
Oh, very serious man. Yeah, yeah. And when you did something that he didn't like, he would just like, you know, look at you and say this, I do not like, like that kind of stuff. Like, so very, very serious. Right.

00;25;39;25 - 00;25;43;01
 Mark
But at one point someone.

00;25;43;03 - 00;25;52;06
Will
Like saw those like little marks and he said that they looked kind of crappy. And from then on you refer to them as quote unquote, the crappies. And I could not stop laughing.

00;25;52;06 - 00;25;53;07
 Mark
Because it's.

00;25;53;07 - 00;25;55;10
Will
The silliest thing to hear him say that.

00;25;55;12 - 00;26;18;28
 Mark
Right? In such a serious tone. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's that's a really cool tips. I want to talk a little bit more about you. Yeah. Okay. Because you'd like to start, right? Yeah. What inspires you in your work? You know, when I looked at your website, your website and your YouTube and your, Instagram, by the way, let's take it a little minute and, why don't you give us your website?

00;26;18;28 - 00;26;21;18
 Mark
Oh, yes. And, all those contacts for you.

00;26;21;23 - 00;26;37;18
Will
Yeah. So my handles on social media are all the same. It's, W.M. Vias and Victor metal smithing, and my website is, wmv metal smithing.com. You can also go to jewelry. Sorry, WMV jewelry. Okay. Apparently that domain name wasn't taken, so I grabbed it.

00;26;37;20 - 00;26;38;29
 Mark
Okay. There's a lot of fun.

00;26;38;29 - 00;26;40;12
Will
Top level domains that are open right now.

00;26;40;12 - 00;26;41;23
 Mark
And that's the thing for Instagram too, right?

00;26;41;23 - 00;26;44;20
Will
Yes. Instagram. All that stuff is the exact same.

00;26;44;20 - 00;27;01;15
 Mark
Okay, cool. Yeah. Yes. I was on all, all your platforms and looking at your work and, I'd like to call you a brother from another mother because you and I have really a lot of the same kind of, like, design sense. Oh, you know, very precision, very technical. But a little bit whimsical.

00;27;01;20 - 00;27;01;26
Will
Okay.

00;27;01;28 - 00;27;11;14
 Mark
You know, so I'd like to understand, you know, what kind of drives you to make a project and, Yeah, let's just start there.

00;27;11;17 - 00;27;30;11
Will
Sure. Yeah. As silly as it might sound, I get a stupid idea that makes me laugh. And I'll start, like, trying to, like, work on it and make it work. An example of one of these that didn't quite work out recently was I was, for whatever reason, I thought about making a six sided dice with all one pips on them.

00;27;30;11 - 00;27;44;13
Will
So like, no matter what you roll, it was a one, right? But then I was like, wait, what if I made it so that no matter what you rolled, it's always the same specific one? So I started like figuring out how to weight it. So I would always do that. It didn't really work out because it turns out weighted dice like roll, that doesn't really matter.

00;27;44;21 - 00;27;50;07
Will
But like that's the kind of thing that I'll do, like just trying to figure out something like whimsical and fun and figure out how to bring that into our reality.

00;27;50;10 - 00;27;50;22
 Mark
Right.

00;27;50;29 - 00;28;11;24
Fiona
And you work with a lot of alternative materials, especially for setting them, which is a really kind of interesting thing to see when you're not necessarily just working with gemstones, but working with other mediums. What sort of drives you? I know you mentioned you have background with more like welding larger project on that sort of things as well.

00;28;11;24 - 00;28;23;10
Fiona
But what really drives you to being interested in working with those alternative materials? Is it just the possibilities, obviously playing around a little bit to see what it'll do?

00;28;23;12 - 00;28;37;22
Will
Yeah. So that's interesting. So going back, like I said, the person who got me into jewelry was, Sarah Doremus and, she's, she was good friends with, Fred Wohl and Fred. Fred was like a pretty big influence on, like, how my world looks and.

00;28;37;25 - 00;28;38;12
 Mark
I see it now.

00;28;38;13 - 00;28;56;00
Will
I really like his message about, you know, just the viability of, like, different materials within your work and, like, what you can like what that brings to it, like what it says. Yeah. All that stuff. But mainly, I don't know, in grad school, my whole thesis was about challenging the material hierarchy, i.e. gold versus silver versus like coal.

00;28;56;02 - 00;29;15;04
Will
And so I tried to like, take a lot of these really strange materials and try and elevate them through craft and through care and through like just different sort of associations, like, how do I impart the value upon this thing here? Like, one of my pieces is a piece where it's a big old talisman with the, it's based off of a talisman from the 1600s.

00;29;15;04 - 00;29;34;20
Will
No, no, eight hundreds BCE. I think it's a talisman of Charlemagne's, but it's based off of that. But instead of having a giant golf ball sized piece of sapphire in the center, it has, like, fossilized dinosaur dung. And the idea was like trying to make a form that both references it points back to it and then, like, adds value to it just by its association.

00;29;34;27 - 00;29;55;07
Will
Right. So just kind of playing with like this sort of idea of like what things are worth and how value was just very, sort of fluid and, subjective. But also just like a lot of stuff interests me. Like, I think it's very fun to make things out of Bakelite. I think it's very fun to, like, work with, especially things that are like accretion based, like a Fortnite or Damascus.

00;29;55;07 - 00;30;13;26
Will
I love that kind of stuff. But yeah. Yeah. And also, just like the associations of these different materials with what they do and like, what they, you know, bring from that piece. For instance, one of my favorite pieces from Fred Wool is, come alive. You're the Pepsi Generation, which is like a brooch that has a, bunch of little bullet casings hanging off it.

00;30;13;29 - 00;30;29;12
 Mark
Okay. I'm trying. I'm trying to picture his work. I got to meet him. Is like a major moment for me. I was at haystack, and, I got. I actually bought one of his little pieces that he sells for as a fundraiser there. So, really inspirational man, for sure.

00;30;29;12 - 00;30;30;28
Will
Absolutely. Yeah.

00;30;31;00 - 00;30;39;03
 Mark
I noticed, like, there was a and kind of a weird thing is, like a dumpster, a 20, 20 dumpster fire. Yeah. What's that about, man?

00;30;39;03 - 00;30;50;27
Will
So the term dumpster fire, generally refers to, like, a situation that is really awful, right? So I thought it would be fun to make one for 20 to, for 2020 because of how much of a dumpster fire that was.

00;30;50;27 - 00;30;52;26
 Mark
It. That's a great way to put it. Yeah.

00;30;52;28 - 00;31;12;16
Will
And I'm definitely on some kind of list because when I was making the, like when I was taking pictures of that, I tried to, like, light it on fire on the inside. So it had, like, this really nice plume of smoke and like, fire coming out of it. And I tried first, you know, soaking a, like a Q-Tip or, sorry, a, like a piece of gauze with, like, some denatured alcohol.

00;31;12;18 - 00;31;18;23
Will
And that has created this nice blue clean flame. And I'm like, I can't do this. So I just started googling, like, how to make flame dirty.

00;31;18;23 - 00;31;19;23
 Mark
Or.

00;31;19;25 - 00;31;21;02
Will
How to start fire with.

00;31;21;09 - 00;31;22;17
 Mark
So you're on a watch list now?

00;31;22;17 - 00;31;24;16
Will
Oh, yeah. Not 100%. My handler's.

00;31;24;18 - 00;31;25;05
 Mark
Yeah.

00;31;25;08 - 00;31;39;06
Will
Show it to my handler, Steve. Right. But I ended up using a dryer lint and then petroleum jelly, like, stuffing it inside there and lighting it on fire. And I can, include the video of that. I took a video of it with the pedestal of that being a garbage can that is tipped upside down.

00;31;39;08 - 00;31;41;22
 Mark
Yeah.

00;31;41;24 - 00;31;51;16
Fiona
Know do you have any other hobbies working with all these interesting projects and materials? What else are you doing with it?

00;31;51;18 - 00;32;05;11
Will
That's a good question, actually, I do a lot of writing, and I do a lot of, like, just research on, like, weird topics. I don't know, sometimes I'll just get, like, really interested in something very strange and esoteric, and I'm like, go down a rabbit hole on this, on this 3 a.m..

00;32;05;14 - 00;32;23;05
 Mark
Oh, man, I love your rabbit holes. Yeah. I mean, I remember one time on Instagram you posted this like silver bezel that melted through a brush sheet and that was fantastic because that happened to me. My when I was an undergrad, you know, I had silver just, like disappeared in the brass. Yep. I'm like, dude, that totally happened to me.

00;32;23;08 - 00;32;39;28
 Mark
Talk to this. Talk about that experience. Because I think people would really like to know what happened and your process for finding out what happened, because that's the thing. One of the things I really like about you is your rabbit holes. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm, I just like, take it for granted. And I'm like, okay, I'm not going to do that again.

00;32;40;00 - 00;32;42;28
 Mark
You want to find the answer? Oh yeah. You know. So let's talk about that.

00;32;42;28 - 00;33;06;12
Will
Yeah. So during I think it was when did this happen? I think it happened when I was teaching at Salem State University for a minute. I was doing a demonstration in class and it was on bezel making. So I had this brass backing sheet and then this, fine silver bezel. And as I'm hitting it from underneath it, like, literally just goes through the metal and you can see it on the other side, just like no clips through it.

00;33;06;17 - 00;33;07;11
 Mark
It passes through.

00;33;07;12 - 00;33;13;27
Will
It passes through. And I remember seeing that and be like, oh God, why, oh God. And then like I quickly put it in the pickle pot, then pulled out the one that I made the night before.

00;33;13;27 - 00;33;14;28
 Mark
Being like, hey, look, it's already.

00;33;14;28 - 00;33;31;05
Will
Done. It's great. And anyways, so after that class ended, I was just like in awe of the strange thing that happened. And I kind of forgot about it for a couple of years. Then I was reminded of it recently because someone had like mentioned a similar thing happening. And so I tried to get to the bottom of like what was going on with it.

00;33;31;07 - 00;33;37;19
Will
So the first thing I did was I read, Mark Grimm Wade's book, which I think it's called, I feel the name of it's like green one.

00;33;37;27 - 00;33;41;19
 Mark
Yeah, I know that. I could see the book. Intro.

00;33;41;21 - 00;33;42;23
Will
Introduction to Precious Metals or.

00;33;42;23 - 00;33;43;14
 Mark
Something like that. Like that.

00;33;43;20 - 00;33;58;25
Will
Yeah. And so I was reading about, like, how the sort of refined silver interacts with this stuff. And then I started reading more in like, AP on tracks, books and trying to find an answer to it. And then I just decided that I'm probably just going to have to just experiment with it myself to see if I can recreate it.

00;33;58;28 - 00;34;16;01
Will
So I did several different little experiments where I like, you know, took a piece of brass, made a bezel and then put it on top. And so the first one I did, which was just like, you know, brass and, bezel, it kind of worked, but not really. Yeah. To make a very long story short, what I found out was that the solder is definitely playing a role here.

00;34;16;05 - 00;34;33;12
Will
Yeah. And what I think is happening based off of, like, all the stuff that I've seen is that the solder is like, at that point, lowering the melting point of that brass in that one specific area and then making it pass through. It's very bizarre stuff like cartridge brass and like silver do weird things together.

00;34;33;13 - 00;34;56;18
 Mark
Yeah, it's super weird. And I've noticed it. It really is problematic with the hard cider. Yes. Because you're hitting that temperature, that really special temperature where everything goes weird. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. And people if you're interested in this topic, you can see it on Will's, Instagram. Yep. There's a couple of different posts where, you know, he initiates the issue and then kind of try and solves it really comes up with it.

00;34;56;19 - 00;34;57;07
 Mark
What happens?

00;34;57;09 - 00;35;02;28
Will
Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Those are my favorites.

00;35;03;00 - 00;35;06;22
 Mark
Excuse me. Where do you see yourself in 20 years? Man.

00;35;06;25 - 00;35;08;19
Will
I have no idea.

00;35;08;21 - 00;35;10;09
 Mark
That's a Virgo down another rabbit hole.

00;35;10;09 - 00;35;16;21
Will
Probably not. I try to think about that far ahead. I'm currently 34, and I try not to think about what that's going to be like.

00;35;16;23 - 00;35;26;14
 Mark
It changes daily, and I'm turning 56 and two days. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's crazy, man. You just hang on for the ride, man.

00;35;26;16 - 00;35;26;28
Will
Yeah.

00;35;27;05 - 00;35;30;17
 Mark
We're gonna talk about anything that you want to talk about. Any kind of topics that you want to bring up.

00;35;30;19 - 00;35;31;22
Will
Let's see.

00;35;31;25 - 00;35;35;03
Fiona
Maybe do some of your most interesting pieces you worked on recently or.

00;35;35;03 - 00;35;51;27
Will
Oh, actually, just project. I can talk about one of my, my favorite pieces I've ever made. Yes. That does actually. Yeah. Culminate in that. So there is a museum in Maine called the Maine. I always flip the two. It's either gem and mineral or mineral and Gem Museum there in Bethel, Maine, they have the largest collection of meteorites like on the planet.

00;35;51;27 - 00;36;13;17
Will
They're great. If you are in that area, you definitely should go visit because they just have like this immense collection of like, all kinds of gems you could possibly imagine. Like all the history behind them. But they had contacted me a while back and I made them a necklace where it's a, it has a piece of meteorite in the center of it, and then the chain is like a bunch of different constellations.

00;36;13;19 - 00;36;37;15
Will
But what I love about that design is like, that was one that I came up with, and I can't believe I figured that out. Like, I came up with that design when I was like 26 and then like put in a sketchbook and then never really did anything with it. And so, yeah, so the, the constellations on that piece, each one of them has a piece of, calcite meteorite inside of it, which is basically sometimes meteorites can form with little pockets of all of the inside of it.

00;36;37;15 - 00;36;38;15
 Mark
Yeah, I have one. Yeah.

00;36;38;15 - 00;36;56;25
Will
Yeah. They're great. Yeah. And so they're all cut and faceted like gemstones and each little like star that's on each constellation is based off of the magnitude of that star. As in, like how bright that star is in the sky. So brighter star means bigger stone. Okay, so basically going through all these documents and then figuring out like, okay, what's the magnitude of this star, this one, this one?

00;36;56;25 - 00;37;15;28
Will
And then like making a coherent diagram and figuring out how to, like, scale them and size them and also like how to position them on the neck. So that way they form that like triangle that you see in the sky. So that was really fun. And then, the actual necklace itself is based off of like sci fi elements from like the 1970s and 80s like that kind of like really, you know, retro futuristic look.

00;37;15;28 - 00;37;30;24
Will
Right? Also based off of, like, different, modules from NASA. So that was probably one of my favorite things I've ever made. And recently I was asked to remake it, so I did, and yeah, I love that piece. I'll definitely email you. Will the high res pictures of that one.

00;37;30;28 - 00;37;32;11
 Mark
Okay. I'd love to see that.

00;37;32;11 - 00;37;38;15
Will
Yeah. And, I can't really talk more about the meteorite in the center. They've asked me to not talk about that one too much.

00;37;38;15 - 00;38;01;03
Fiona
Okay, well, let's talk about the olivine, then. Have you ever messed around with the healing properties? Because olivine, or what's more commonly known in the jewelry trade, is peridot is a stone that in certain instances, you can actually bring a torch, you can bring heat to it, and it won't necessarily crack or discolor, especially when it has a more meteorology material.

00;38;01;06 - 00;38;02;28
Fiona
It meteorological.

00;38;02;29 - 00;38;06;02
Will
Meteor. Larger meteor adjacent.

00;38;06;05 - 00;38;06;19
 Mark
Yeah.

00;38;06;19 - 00;38;10;07
Fiona
Quality to it. Yeah. So have you ever messed around with that at all?

00;38;10;07 - 00;38;24;14
Will
I have not, but I know that like the olivine you get from those meteorites, you have to treat with kid gloves. Like you can't treat them like Earth paradigms because they're pretty fragile, because they have a lot of like, inclusions and stuff in them. Because it turns out the vacuum of space isn't a great place to, like, form a gemstone.

00;38;24;14 - 00;38;46;21
Will
Who knew? But I know that, one of the things that's been recommended to me by somebody who has worked with them a lot is do not do the kind of prong settings where you like, fold corners over on them, like where you have a, what they call those, like those. V oh, yeah. Prongs. Yeah. Like avoid that if you can, like, try and like build the prongs up very slowly with a laser and kind of push them over because they're kind of it.

00;38;46;24 - 00;39;10;04
Will
Some of them are fine, but every now and again you'll get one that's like glass where it has like one floor inside of it that makes it like, you know, explode. I found out the hard way about that when I was first making that necklace. Because I did a lot of tube studying with those and the way that I've always done tube setting is I always like, you know, drill the thing in and then, like, kind of push the piece against my desk to, like, make sure it goes in.

00;39;10;06 - 00;39;17;02
Will
And I remember doing that at like, you know, two in the morning. And it was do like very soon. Yeah. And then I just hear a sickening crack.

00;39;17;09 - 00;39;17;26
 Mark
Yeah.

00;39;17;28 - 00;39;20;26
Will
And I'm like, oh no that'd crunch.

00;39;21;01 - 00;39;28;15
 Mark
Yeah. And you feel those things in your soul. Yeah. You know you can barely hear it, but you feel it in your soul and like, oh my God, what do they do?

00;39;28;19 - 00;39;48;10
Will
Yeah. But I got an extra when I got fixed, but, like. Yeah. So you have to be very, very gentle with them. That also means don't do dumb things like what I did before, which is I made a pair of earrings with them. And are you familiar with those, like, texture wheels that are like these spinning, like, steel things that, like, just smack into the metal?

00;39;48;12 - 00;40;03;18
Will
Yeah. So I thought to myself, this is just a pair of earrings that are like a simple, like, you know, tube stud earring. And I thought to myself, I've already done high polish on this. I've already done satin finish. I've already made a bunch of these with, like, all the different finishes imaginable. Oh, let's go ahead and use one of these.

00;40;03;20 - 00;40;20;13
Will
And so I set the stone, do all the stuff to it, and then take it over to my pin vise and start using that, that, tool on them. Yeah. And then I'm like, great, it's all done. That stone looks weird now. And look under the loop. And like half of it's been like chunked out. I guess like one of the steel things slapped into it and I was like, oh yeah, I'm an idiot.

00;40;20;13 - 00;40;21;15
Will
I should have done that.

00;40;21;17 - 00;40;39;12
 Mark
Those those are amazing tools. They give it a very particular finish that you just cannot duplicate any other way. Oh, yeah. But they are wicked, you know, and they're wicked to use. And, it's like, kind of hold on to your, your britches, man, because it's good. You're right, you know. But they they're beautiful. Finish. Oh, yeah.

00;40;39;12 - 00;40;50;01
Will
So I that's I didn't think I would like them as much as I do, but they become like a very big part of my, my like practice as of late. Yeah. Excuse me. Yeah.

00;40;50;04 - 00;41;09;24
 Mark
Cool. So I have a question, actually, from one of your followers. Oh, this is, Mark Nelson, 5121. I don't know who that is, but, here's a question for you on your Instagram. You say, you've been exiled from TikTok. Is there a story behind that? Is. Yes, there is Self-exiled Asian or no.

00;41;09;27 - 00;41;28;18
Will
Okay. So, God, what do we even begin with this? So on December 1st of 2023, my account was permanently suspended. And they didn't just ban my account, they also banned my phone. So my phone at that time could not make a new account and could not use the website. And they went so far as to IP banned my computer.

00;41;28;18 - 00;41;48;07
Will
So when I tried to like log on and I still to this day do not know the message, just said you have violated our community guidelines. That's it. Whenever I tried to like message them about that, I would get this canned response that basically just says, yes, we have, you know, you've been banned for this. So I've spent the past, you're trying to figure out, like what is going on.

00;41;48;09 - 00;42;00;19
Will
And from what I can tell, their approach to moderation is similar to someone going to a crowded bank and firing a blunderbuss into it. On the off chance that some of the shrapnel may stop a robbery that could be happening.

00;42;00;22 - 00;42;01;09
 Mark
Oh geez.

00;42;01;15 - 00;42;07;08
Will
I think what I've also noticed a lot of people who are like on their doing the kind of stuff that I did, also met with the same fate.

00;42;07;14 - 00;42;07;27
 Mark


00;42;07;27 - 00;42;21;16
Will
And I think it's them like over moderating and a lot of it's automated. So if you'd like, have this happen to you, that's it. You're screwed. Because if you try and message their support team, you'll get a bot that just auto responds to you and says, yes, that's that's right. We did this.

00;42;21;18 - 00;42;24;06
 Mark
Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like a bot that that canceled you.

00;42;24;08 - 00;42;26;08
Will
Yep. And then the bot that responds to it responds.

00;42;26;10 - 00;42;28;21
 Mark
Well, that's what happens when you Google how to make dirty smoke.

00;42;28;22 - 00;42;30;01
Will
And I say, man, that's what happens.

00;42;30;06 - 00;42;30;29
 Mark
That's high.

00;42;31;01 - 00;42;50;25
Will
But the insane thing is that I've seen multiple reports of this happening to people who just don't do anything on the website. It's just like their moderator, their moderation bot, like hallucinate and then like, banned someone. In fact, recently I went on there with a new account like re upload my old stuff to see if I can figure out what may have like set off an invisible tripwire.

00;42;50;25 - 00;43;08;19
Will
Yeah, and I found a couple interesting things out. One of them is that they have some way of like, scanning content and looking for fire, and I noticed that with one of my things, I would upload it and then it would get like restricted, but then I would put a black censor bar over where the fire is and it would be fine.

00;43;08;22 - 00;43;09;02
 Mark


00;43;09;06 - 00;43;22;28
Will
And another time, one, one part got like tagged for like sexually explicit content. And that was me opening a book and then using my finger to, like, highlight the parts on the book. So there's like some I going on there, like scanning stuff.

00;43;23;05 - 00;43;28;29
 Mark
That's crazy man. Yeah, well, it doesn't make you look cooler. Yeah. Oh, know. Okay. You've been exiled from TikTok.

00;43;28;29 - 00;43;46;27
Will
Yeah. And also, just like the other thing about that is just that, I don't know, like I had 175 K followers on TikTok at that point. But the audience there is very siloed and it didn't translate into anything. So it's kind of like fake internet fame, kind of like how things were in like the early 2000, I don't know.

00;43;46;29 - 00;44;03;28
 Mark
Yeah. I'm loving you. You you're kind of content on YouTube. Oh, yeah. You know how to make sanding sticks. Very, very simple. Right? But the way you do it and the way you teach and the way you explain things, you know, you're going to take it from a very all different levels. You know, you're like, very basic to like, very technical.

00;44;03;28 - 00;44;21;25
 Mark
And your video on checking files, which I love. But I never took a minute to think, you know, like, beyond that. And you go in your rabbit hole and, and kind of explain exactly how you're going to use that to get these patterns, you know? Oh, yeah. I mean, the different types of, grids and spacings and things like that.

00;44;21;28 - 00;44;41;01
 Mark
So I really encourage people who are watching and listening to check out your videos. You're very, very educational, man. I think you love the way you teach. And you throw in humor and you throw in, like I said, anything from very basic to, like, this is the high end technical stuff. Yeah. Getting some more questions for him.

00;44;41;03 - 00;44;51;29
Fiona
Well, talking about your experience, all these projects you've worked on, some of your fun things that you've tried, what's some advice you would give to yourself at ten years old?

00;44;52;06 - 00;44;53;25
Will
Oh, God.

00;44;53;27 - 00;44;54;14
 Mark
I was hoping you'd.

00;44;54;14 - 00;45;15;14
Will
Ask several things not to do with several people. Not to date, things like that. But like real talk, like the actual, like, biggest piece of advice I would give is like, stop taking everything so seriously. Just accept the fact that everything is chaos and things are going you're going to get pushed in weird directions. I don't know, it kind of like that.

00;45;15;14 - 00;45;32;17
Will
The one song by our Talking heads, once in a lifetime, really? Like, speaks me because it's like your life is kind of on autopilot for a lot of, different, aspects of it. So just kind of accept that and understand that, like, things are going to happen. Your plans are not going to be like realized due to like, external stuff happening.

00;45;32;20 - 00;45;33;12
 Mark
Right?

00;45;33;14 - 00;45;34;08
Will
Yeah.

00;45;34;10 - 00;45;39;14
 Mark
What about you, Fiona? What would you, what advice would you give to your ten year old self?

00;45;39;16 - 00;45;47;21
Fiona
Just do the things even if you're don't think you're going to need them or use them or be interested in them. Yeah. Especially in the jewelry industry.

00;45;47;24 - 00;45;53;06
 Mark
Yeah. I think I'd, I'd say to my team yourself, stop being afraid.

00;45;53;08 - 00;45;53;22
Will
Yeah.

00;45;53;24 - 00;46;12;00
 Mark
You know what I mean? Because when I was ten years old, man, I was making everything, I was growing up in Alaska and tearing apart engines just laying around, and I made all kinds of lethal warfare weapons and things like that, you know, very much in the daddy. Oh, yeah. You know, speaking of that, yeah.

00;46;12;00 - 00;46;14;23
 Mark
As a daddy and character, who do you identify at?

00;46;14;26 - 00;46;29;15
Will
I was in like a class or like, that's the class. So I'm a career warlock player. Okay. Usually the great old one patron bishop, because I'm really into, like, 1900s fiction. But currently I'm the forever DM, so I'm just always the person DMing because no one else wants to do it, right?

00;46;29;15 - 00;46;30;10
 Mark
Right.

00;46;30;12 - 00;46;36;22
Will
But, yeah, I'd say that just because you have an otherworldly pack and it's kind of like weird and sort of like Lovecraftian, almost,

00;46;36;24 - 00;46;37;16
 Mark
It's amazing.

00;46;37;16 - 00;46;47;24
Will
Yeah. My favorite, genre of fiction is like, kind of like weird fiction. So my favorite series of, like, anything is, The Dark Tower by Stephen King. Oh, okay. So that should give you kind of like a barometer of, like where I'm at with that.

00;46;47;27 - 00;46;57;05
 Mark
Okay. Yeah. I grew up on fiction, super influenced by a lot of the, that early art. Oh, yeah. I can give you any names. I actually.

00;46;57;05 - 00;47;15;04
Will
Do have one. Dave Carson, and I only know it's because he recently put out an art book. Okay. And my favorite artist of all time did a lot of the artwork for D and D and a lot of other, like, drapes and stuff like that. And his work has been hard to find, like online, like, doesn't really have a website, but he finally put out a book that's like, you know, all this stuff that he's ever done.

00;47;15;04 - 00;47;18;01
Will
It's like the most beautiful, horrifying thing I've ever seen.

00;47;18;03 - 00;47;24;10
 Mark
The Da is actually how I got started drawing. Oh, yeah. You know, I, I, I would copy a lot of that stuff.

00;47;24;16 - 00;47;34;25
Will
Yeah. It's got a very particular look to it, especially like the older stuff where it was like black and white and had like this very sort of like grotesque, almost like, quality to it, if you know, what I'm saying.

00;47;34;27 - 00;47;40;02
 Mark
Is super cool. Yeah. That's all all the questions I have. Do you get anything else for any or.

00;47;40;08 - 00;47;42;19
Fiona
No, I think we're all good this week.

00;47;42;20 - 00;47;46;06
 Mark
Well, you got something else you want chime in on or, probably.

00;47;46;06 - 00;47;49;12
Will
Something the corporate will let me say.

00;47;49;15 - 00;48;08;05
 Mark
All right. So definitely, you know, listeners and watchers, definitely check out Will's, social media and his platforms, his work is amazing. Definitely take a class. You can find him teaching, metal works.com, either in person or online. And you are going to learn stuff.

00;48;08;08 - 00;48;11;15
Will
And learn things you never thought you wanted to learn. Yeah. And you will like it.

00;48;11;17 - 00;48;27;19
 Mark
And you will like it. Well thank you. Well, man, so much for coming out and flying out here, to Albuquerque to join us. Oh, yeah. And, we really hope to get you back out here sometime soon. Absolutely. And, I hope that you have a great, great time here. And you have a safe flight home, man.

00;48;27;25 - 00;48;28;20
Will
Oh, yeah. Me, too.

00;48;28;23 - 00;48;40;15
 Mark
Thank you. Dude. Yeah.

00;48;40;18 - 00;48;43;09
 Mark
Well, that was a really great interview as well, wasn't it?

00;48;43;17 - 00;49;02;03
Fiona
It was just he really messes around with so many different boundaries to push and things, you prove and disprove in the jewelry industry that it's so good listening to all of his stories and all of his tests and examples.

00;49;02;03 - 00;49;20;18
 Mark
And oh, for certain, he's really helping me out with my class. Yeah. Thank you. So but when we've had such a really great year, we've had some amazing, guests with us, you know, one that really comes to my, my mind is personal to me is the, interview we had with Jacob Morgan and Michael McCray, the guys that went to Bhutan.

00;49;20;23 - 00;49;27;27
Fiona
Yeah. And it's such an amazing story. Yeah. And just thing that's happening and that they're doing.

00;49;27;27 - 00;49;39;28
 Mark
Yeah. And to teach that fundamental skill of making your own stamps in your own way. Yeah. I mean, I could only have come from Jacob, you know, so that was one of my favorite ones. Is what's one of your favorite ones?

00;49;40;01 - 00;50;11;25
Fiona
You know, I really loved all of our conversations with JJ, everything that we were getting into and just it really brings back that early experience of being a student and being someone learning a student to yourself and really focusing back on at the end of the day, we're all still learning. There's still so many things. So staying in that mindset and remembering that even when you're teaching something, to stay in that mindset of being a student the whole time.

00;50;11;25 - 00;50;22;02
 Mark
And his generosity and sharing, yeah, is amazing as well. And, which, you know, we've had so many great casts and I'm really looking forward to next year, 2025.

00;50;22;09 - 00;50;26;25
Fiona
Yeah, there's lots of new.

00;50;26;28 - 00;50;28;08
 Mark
New ideas.

00;50;28;10 - 00;50;39;05
Fiona
Just yeah, new ideas. New happenings. Yeah. Going to be lots of conversations with lots of artists. Really broadening everything that we're talking about.

00;50;39;06 - 00;50;47;23
 Mark
Yeah. One particular guests in particular. Yeah. Know be our first all Spanish episode. So I think it's an artist from

00;50;47;25 - 00;50;48;10
Fiona
Chile.

00;50;48;16 - 00;50;55;18
 Mark
Jelly. Yeah. I don't know how to say it. Right, but, yeah. So I talk to me in Spanish. Yeah. So that's a first for us, which is amazing. We needed to do that.

00;50;55;22 - 00;50;56;05
Fiona
Yeah.

00;50;56;06 - 00;51;15;21
 Mark
And, you know, we're kicking. Kicking around some other ideas. I don't, you know, the guys upstairs, they're like, okay, I got some stuff I want to try out. I'm like, what is it? Maybe some live stream stuff? Yeah. You know, so we're looking at our technology and our abilities to do things and, kind of get out there and a little bit and try some different stuff.

00;51;15;25 - 00;51;21;22
Fiona
Yeah, that'll be fun. I think all these new things to try, new things to learn.

00;51;21;23 - 00;51;40;02
 Mark
Yeah, yeah. You know, we have to we had to do a background check it on the new grass and see if they have any musical abilities. Exactly. Because when we played, JJ song as part of the podcast, that was one of the best things. Coolest things ever, man. Yeah. So, yeah, let's, I'm looking forward to 20, 25, man.

00;51;40;04 - 00;52;11;29
Fiona
Yeah. Can't wait. That's all for today's show. A big thank you to Will Vanaria for joining us on the show today. It was a pleasure learning more about Will his creative process and his unique approach to jewelry making. Learn more about Will by visiting wmvmetalsmith.com or Metalwerx.com. We'd also like to thank today's sponsor, mirrored. Crafted from premium aluminum oxide abrasives and animal fats, bread compounds offer unmatched consistency and reliable performance.

00;52;12;00 - 00;53;01;19
Fiona
Now through the end of December, use code real mirrored at checkout to get 10% off. Select right polishing compounds, cloths and buffs. Do you have a question you'd like answered on the show, or do you want to submit ideas for future episodes? Email us at podcast at Rio grande.com. Until next time, thank you for listening and have a great day.

00;53;01;21 - 00;59;56;03
Fiona
Thank you to everyone for listening and look forward to our first podcasts of the New Year in January 2025. And thank you to everybody on YouTube for watching. Be sure to like and subscribe for more and for everybody listening on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Be sure to give us a five star review. Thanks for listening and take care.

00;59;56;05 - 01;00;01;11
Fiona
Before we get to our interview with Will, I'd like to talk a little bit about our sponsor for this month. Morad.

01;00;01;14 - 01;00;02;29
 Mark
Polishing compounds. Yes. Oh, yeah.