S6-E3: Annie Osburn: A Life in Words & Art

Annie Osburn is an award-winning author featured in such publications as National Geographic Traveler, Southwest Art, and Lapidary Journal Jewelry Artist. Initially resistant to her talent as a writer, it seems the universe insisted she embrace it. After being introduced to an editor from the Santa Fe New Mexican, Annie kicked off an impressive career writing about local artists. Her first interview with a Santa Fe jeweler in the 1990s lit a creative fire she still feels to this day. In Season 6, Episode 3 of For the Love of Jewelers, Annie chats with co-hosts Mark Nelson and her daughter, Fiona Morrison, about her beginnings, career, and deep passion for jewelry and artistry.

To learn more about Annie and her work, visit annieosburn.com and weavingandforging.com.

Transcript

00;00;08;18 - 00;00;29;06
Mark
Hi, everybody, and welcome to season six of For the Love of Jewelers podcast. I'm your host, Martin Nelson, and joining me once again is my co-host Fiona Morrison. And, I kind of don't like it when you win the, rock, paper, scissors game because you always make me do the host when it's your show, man. You're the star of this show, especially today with our special guests.

00;00;29;09 - 00;00;31;11
Fiona
No, it's randomly generated, I'm sure.

00;00;31;14 - 00;00;33;01
Mark
Randomly generated. Okay.

00;00;33;05 - 00;00;55;14
Fiona
On today's show, we have a special guest who is near and dear to my heart. My very own mother, Annie Osbourne. Annie is an award winning author, podcast host, and fiber artist. Her work has been in publications like Lapidary Journal, southwest Art magazine, and National Geographic Traveler. She brings a wonderful perspective on the jewelry industry and the artist.

00;00;55;14 - 00;00;57;23
Fiona
The power it. Welcome.

00;00;57;26 - 00;01;01;27
Annie
Thank you so much for having me. This is so exciting to be here with you.

00;01;01;29 - 00;01;05;21
Mark
And and what you left out is you're an amazing model for her jewelry.

00;01;05;29 - 00;01;07;12
Annie
Exactly.

00;01;07;14 - 00;01;13;15
Annie
Almost everything I have on today you made. Thank you so much.

00;01;13;18 - 00;01;27;10
Fiona
Glad to have you here. Thank you. So getting into a little bit about your background. How did you get into art and how did that really grow up with you? How did you grow up with art and get to where you are today?

00;01;27;12 - 00;01;55;18
Annie
Well, you know, for, for many years, as you probably know, I've written about artists also jewelry artists. My story is probably similar to what you would hear in an interview when I asked that question to an artist. How did you get started? And it's so common to hear 1 or 2 experiences and early childhood, some influence that stuck with that person that might not have even evolved until they were older.

00;01;55;20 - 00;02;18;29
Annie
It can be subconscious. You're sort of surprised later when you say, oh, wow, that really affected me. Wanted to become a jewelry designer or something like that. For me, my mother was a painter, so I grew up, with a lot of oil paint in my house, and she would take me along to her, lessons as she had a teacher, she would see, and I guess, get rid of me and get me out of the studio.

00;02;19;01 - 00;02;47;01
Annie
I was about 11 or 12. They would send me up to Jean, her teacher's, private apartment where she had stacks and stacks of National Geographic magazines. And so these towers of yellow spines were there, and she said, pick one. Pick a picture that you might want to paint, and I'll teach you how to watercolor. So, of course, the issue I picked was probably published in the 1970s, and I slipped right to a story about Santa Fe.

00;02;47;03 - 00;02;47;16
Mark
Oh, geez.

00;02;47;18 - 00;03;14;16
Annie
And I was in Florida, so I was nowhere near Santa Fe at the time. I, you know, I spent my early childhood in Florida, and I think there was something about that story that impacted me so much, even though I was around art, there was something about the photos and the concept of artists working together. Collaborating and community and the ability to live like an artist.

00;03;14;19 - 00;03;35;25
Annie
You know, I had always heard, oh, it's great now, but you'll have to study something else in college or get a real job, you know, things like that. So I thought, wow, these people are doing it. So I think that just stuck with me. And it wasn't until. So this would have been in like the early 1970s where they that I saw that it wasn't until the late 1980s that I actually moved to Santa Fe and started writing about artists.

00;03;35;25 - 00;03;42;03
Annie
So I think it really propelled me there. And that was that was an early experience. So if if that's a good answer, I don't know.

00;03;42;05 - 00;03;42;11
Annie
Yeah.

00;03;42;11 - 00;03;51;26
Fiona
So it's really shaped sort of how you progressed from there with coming here to New Mexico and getting into looking at artists.

00;03;51;26 - 00;04;07;15
Annie
It did. And what was funny was, you know, I had been, a freelance writer for several years before that. So I went to college. I had real jobs for two years, and I realized that just wasn't for me. I wanted to be on my own and do it. And my dad worked for himself. And he always said, if you can work for yourself.

00;04;07;15 - 00;04;27;10
Annie
So that was also stuck in there. And I worked in a big ad agency, and we hired a copywriter to it's what we always called them in those days to do, an annual report for, a large investment company that was a client. And I got to manage him because I was a junior, you know, and they didn't want to bother with him.

00;04;27;10 - 00;04;42;18
Annie
And he was awesome. So he would take me to lunch and he would say, you know, I think you want to do what I do. Let me teach you how to do it. And so it was incredible. He must have seen something. So when I say teach me how to do it, he taught me how to write a proposal, an invoice, an estimate.

00;04;42;22 - 00;05;04;14
Annie
I mean, those are really powerful things to know how to do, to get yourself started. So I think that that got me into that, you know, channel. And I was doing a lot of business writing, let's say, for companies. So when I moved to Santa Fe, in those days, I had a, Compaq portable, which was a big deal to have your own computer, but it was like heavier than a sewing machine, right?

00;05;04;16 - 00;05;23;04
Annie
So I left it with my best friend, and I said, under no circumstances send me that computer. I want to have a life where I'm not just working 24 seven and I, I want to just work in a gallery or a coffee shop or something. Right. So I think I went to a temp agency and I could type really fast.

00;05;23;04 - 00;05;45;05
Annie
I could type crazy, like 120 words a minute and I got a temp job at an insurance company across from the Santa Fe New Mexican. And I had done everything the my employer would ever wanted me to do by noon. And he would go have, you know, a couple martinis at lunch. And he came back a few hours later and he said, so what do you really do?

00;05;45;08 - 00;05;47;25
Annie
And he was saying.

00;05;47;27 - 00;06;02;24
Annie
Well, I've been trying to. Hi. This is it. Come on over here. I've got someone to introduce you to. So he walked me across the street and introduced me to some of the editors, and he said, this is where you're going to stay right now. I don't I don't need you back. So then I was begging my friend to send me my laptop and she refused.

00;06;02;24 - 00;06;30;04
Annie
Or my computer. She refused to do that. So, that's how that got started. And then I started writing about artists for the New Mexican and and other local publications. And what was really crazy was probably within that first year, I realized I had written about 2 or 3 people from that National Geographic article. So it was this great full circle moment of I was there with them and I was experiencing that life and seeing it, and it was hard.

00;06;30;06 - 00;06;37;29
Annie
It's very hard to make a living on $40 stories and live in Santa Fe. Oh, here I managed somehow.

00;06;38;02 - 00;06;56;16
Fiona
Well, on that note, a lot of jewelers tell a story with their work. How did you telling that story then about the jeweler communicate what they were trying to communicate?

00;06;56;18 - 00;07;17;00
Annie
So, I had written about other artists for about maybe 4 or 5 years before I did my first piece about a jewelry designer. So that would be painters, sculptors, photographers. And I think it was 1990. I got an assignment to do a profile about Tom Herman of Seven Fingers. I don't know if you've heard of him.

00;07;17;03 - 00;07;43;01
Annie
And he was living in Santa Fe at the time. It was for ornament magazine, and there was something instantly about it. When I was in that studio with that jewelry designer, it was totally different than being in a painters studio. Totally different. The tools, everything that I came to call sort of big mind, where when you see a jeweler at a bench, there are all these thoughts going on.

00;07;43;01 - 00;08;12;25
Annie
So there's, fear, anxiety, design skill, luck, all kinds of things that are in this huge head. Right? And all of it is being focused down to this tiny little thing in the workbench and to keep watching how that happens. That process was so fascinating to me that I thought just in the trial and error and even the mistakes, you know, a stone cracks, something melts, something happens.

00;08;12;28 - 00;08;23;09
Annie
That jeweler has to be okay with it or throw it or, you know, adapt those things. Which, Marc, I'm sure you've seen with your work with educators.

00;08;23;12 - 00;08;24;07
Annie
Yeah. Yeah.

00;08;24;09 - 00;08;52;12
Annie
So, you know, that was so exciting for me to know that everything was happening in real time. So that story was being told in the moment. So that's one aspect of it. But then the other thing that became really clear to me was with jewelry, the power of adornment is undeniable. Oh, yeah. You know, jewelry makers have a unique opportunity to connect with the wearer in this deep and symbolic way.

00;08;52;15 - 00;09;12;16
Annie
So separate from the story the jeweler might be creating at the time, it will have a whole other life and a whole other story about the person who wears it. So you have these multiple layers of stories, this thing that never dies, that just keeps growing, and the piece can become an heirloom piece. There's another story, so I just couldn't get enough of it.

00;09;12;16 - 00;09;16;16
Annie
And I thought, this is great. This is really my my focus, my population.

00;09;16;22 - 00;09;17;22
Annie
Yeah.

00;09;17;24 - 00;09;40;21
Fiona
And you really saw the human behind the pieces as well, the artist, and was able to experience the side of things that a lot of people don't see. They see the finished piece, they don't see the human who's making it and that experience that they're going through and that story that they themselves are creating in order to make the piece.

00;09;40;21 - 00;09;42;18
Annie
They also don't see how dirty it is.

00;09;42;23 - 00;09;43;12
Fiona
Yeah, it's.

00;09;43;20 - 00;10;06;23
Annie
You know, it's dirty work benches are dirty, studios are messy. You know, only every now and then do I see a jewelry designer who has the meticulous studio. And my first question is, where's the real room? Right. You know, is this for the photos? So that is also really fascinating to be able to create. But it's like that diamond in the rough kind of concept.

00;10;06;23 - 00;10;11;20
Annie
I mean, jewelry designers are constantly living in that world.

00;10;11;22 - 00;10;29;07
Fiona
Wonderful. And having written for these publications. And what was that like, especially in the early days of when people think of artists when they might be starting out? And how did that impact your career going forwards?

00;10;29;07 - 00;10;51;14
Annie
Well, I got really lucky because I did somehow or other, I don't know how I ended up pitching some stories to Ornament magazine and I work, you know, contributed to them for about 2 or 3 years. But somehow or other, I was looking for a different venue. I can't quite remember, but I pitched a story to Lapidary Journal, which later rebranded to Laboratory Journal Jewelry Artist around 2007.

00;10;51;17 - 00;11;11;04
Annie
So this was 95, 94. And I had just the most amazing editor, so that had a lot to do with it. I contributed regularly almost every month for 18 years with them because she was incredible. So she would give me ideas. Sometimes she would give me the pick. I could bring her any idea she'd go for it.

00;11;11;06 - 00;11;14;28
Annie
I'm taking a trip to Italy. I want to write about glass artists. Sure.

00;11;15;00 - 00;11;16;23
Annie
Send it in, you know.

00;11;16;25 - 00;11;44;25
Annie
Oh, that was really wonderful. So I didn't feel the same constrictions that I had had for many years with painters and sculptors, let's say, in various publications, where when I would pitch an idea, the question was, well, what gallery are they in? You know, how long have they been painting? And this was really frustrating because I would just find amazing work out there and I could not get coverage for these artists.

00;11;44;27 - 00;12;04;26
Annie
So getting back to what you were asking, you know, these are the days without social media. Yeah. So how are you going to get discovered? You know, a big thing is getting yourself written up. Shows up getting into the big shows in those days, there were a few big shows. It wasn't like this huge saturation of craft markets.

00;12;04;26 - 00;12;16;24
Annie
So it was really hard to get your work out there. So with jewelry, I could get more coverage, more often for more, more designers. So that that helped. I don't know if my answer drew.

00;12;16;26 - 00;12;38;04
Fiona
You, but also, I love and I'm sure the audience would love to know a little bit about your own experiences as a writer and coming to this with this creative vision, just your own experiences going through this, writing about artists, how the industry was before social media.

00;12;38;06 - 00;12;39;15
Annie
It was slower.

00;12;39;18 - 00;12;40;12
Mark
Yeah.

00;12;40;15 - 00;13;03;07
Annie
It was really nice. So most of my and also because of where I lived, you know, in New Mexico at that point, most of my interviews were in person. I could go into a studio and spend four hours, which I can't even imagine now. Right. And it's funny because very quickly, when we started speeding up with email and websites and all of that, so many of my interviews were happening over the phone.

00;13;03;07 - 00;13;33;14
Annie
Even if someone was down the street, everything just sped up. You know, content. We didn't use that term then, but editors wanted more and they wanted it faster. So I couldn't take 3 or 4 hours and go somewhere. Also, in those days, we weren't taking photos with our cell phones, so I would bring my SLR camera with me and hope that what I had in my slide film was going to work, and I would always take a few shots after I finished an interview, or depending on what the scene was, you know, during.

00;13;33;19 - 00;13;52;01
Annie
So I would have that in the can. But in those days, you know, jewelry designers had to spend a fortune to have professional photos taken, and you really had to make those images matter. I mean, it could be several thousand dollars to find a photographer, and you had to make sure, wow, are these my six best pieces? Yeah.

00;13;52;04 - 00;14;16;00
Annie
What if I leave something out and, you know, I would watch that angst that they would go through. And what was also difficult was some people would just try so hard and they would go and they'd spend a bundle and they'd send me 12 images and one would be used. And this was heartbreaking for me to see because I knew what they had invested and I had no control over what was in there.

00;14;16;00 - 00;14;32;16
Annie
And so that was another reason why I loved my relationship with Lapidary Journal jewelry artist, because I always knew what they were going to use, how much so I could be really clear. And I wasn't making the artist have to over invest and have them experience that let down.

00;14;32;19 - 00;14;51;18
Mark
Yeah, lapidary Journal was like my key magazine was amazing. Yeah, yeah. You know, gone. Yeah. Because I went to school in Flagstaff and then Texas Tech and it was Lapidary Journal. Man, that's how you got your inspiration. And that's how you learned about technique and shows and networking and who was who and everything. So it was.

00;14;51;18 - 00;15;09;06
Annie
Fantastic. So it started in 47. And then unfortunately, I think it kind of died with Covid. So I think 20, 2021 is like the last issue. So, you know, it went through changes, it went through different ownership and publishers. And there would be times where you know, I would hear we need more how to articles.

00;15;09;06 - 00;15;09;19
Mark
Yeah.

00;15;09;21 - 00;15;37;10
Annie
You know, so you know just the luxury of having, you know, a feature story or profile that began to become less and less because, you know, the advertisers or the publishers wanted how to articles. Yeah. And then they became less and less, I'm kind of around the time they rebranded. So Merle, my editor, she came to me, I think it was around 2007, and she said, what do you think about doing a trends article, like a trends column?

00;15;37;13 - 00;15;56;22
Annie
And I was like, okay, I'll, I'll try that. So I did it for five years and it was actually really great. It was a two page spread. I could get four artists in there, which was like, wow, you know, one big paragraph, one good image. And it was four more that wouldn't have been in a magazine. And so all you have to do is take that page.

00;15;56;22 - 00;16;01;21
Annie
You know, I'd say, you know, put it in your portfolio, send it out there. That's gold.

00;16;01;24 - 00;16;03;19
Mark
Yeah it is.

00;16;03;21 - 00;16;18;22
Fiona
So tell us a little bit about some fun stories, some artists that you saw even outside of the jewelry industry, writing about these artists being sort of in the thick of it with everybody. What are some fun experiences that you have?

00;16;18;23 - 00;16;35;19
Annie
Well, let's see one of my first ones, actually, I getting back to my beginning with Laboratory Journal. So I pitched a story, to Merle and she said, okay, great. Yeah, yeah, I'll take it, but can you do this other one first? This is. Sure. So it was Carrie O'Dell. I don't know if you're familiar with her work.

00;16;35;22 - 00;16;59;13
Annie
Amazing. Michael Morgan, a shortcut. So if I'm saying that correctly, she made, work that I think she called touchstones. They were, formed. You look it up, you'll know what it is. She was incredible. She was very highly regarded in those days. And so I went to her house, and we did the interview. And at the end, I said, hey, do you mind if I take some photos of you?

00;16;59;13 - 00;17;24;29
Annie
And she said, hold on to. She went in the back totally changed, but, sheath dress came out with this diaphanous thing, took me out in the back, which was all zero scape with these big sort of white rocks. Threw herself down on her back and said, shoot me. And it was. I was like, I loved her. And then one really cool thing that she showed me as I was leaving, she had turned her, linen closet into a photo booth, and I had never seen this before.

00;17;24;29 - 00;17;43;21
Annie
And she had the light, the camera, everything set up. And she said every jewelry designer should photograph every single piece. Yeah, you never know. Yeah. You know, you could just sell it, give it away, and then you never have an image. So that was really powerful. Michael Boyd was obviously one of my favorites. I wrote about him several times.

00;17;43;24 - 00;17;51;14
Annie
The first time I met him, I want to say 91, 92. He was in a converted chicken coop in Denver.

00;17;51;16 - 00;17;52;09
Mark
I read that article.

00;17;52;10 - 00;18;13;19
Annie
Yeah. And he said that I was the first person to interview him the first time he'd been written about. And, you know, he's a genius if you've met him, he even then he had this sort of elfin sparkle in his eye where you knew, I'm not even going to capture everything that's here. So just strap in and kind of go for the ride.

00;18;13;19 - 00;18;39;04
Annie
And his work was just sort of other worldly, really incredible. And he had this bottomless energy. He was so excited about everything. Like he couldn't even be everywhere and do everything. So he asked me at one point he was living in Salida, Colorado, and he asked me if I would, come up or down. I remember where he was and do something about the Salida art walk that I think he was starting.

00;18;39;04 - 00;18;46;05
Annie
Yeah. And he took me everywhere. Harold O'Connor, he introduced me to everybody. I was there for so long, I think I slept on his couch.

00;18;46;08 - 00;18;48;06
Annie
Potato for his soul. I just kind of.

00;18;48;09 - 00;18;55;21
Annie
Was, like, in the middle of nowhere. So he was incredible. So every time I would write about him, there would be a new generation of what he would do.

00;18;55;23 - 00;19;11;05
Fiona
We'd like to thank today's sponsor, Gers tools for 20% off select bench markets. Use promo code Rio 20 at checkout through the 31st and make your jewelry making tasks more efficient.

00;19;11;08 - 00;19;17;08
Annie
I had some favorites. I don't know if you're familiar with James Barker. Oh wow is his work. Oh many.

00;19;17;08 - 00;19;17;21
Mark
Names.

00;19;17;21 - 00;19;38;06
Annie
I can't even I can't even imagine. His work was just amazing. He lived up north of Taos so I'm and I did an interview there. Kent Riley granulation. He was he was really amazing. I think I happened to be in California where he was in like Mill Valley. Maybe I might be remembering this incorrectly, but he had grown very fast.

00;19;38;06 - 00;19;56;22
Annie
You know, he's incredible. Goldsmith and and I just remember him sitting me down and saying, I'm at this point and I start to hear this point from other artists. I'm getting too big to do it all myself. Yeah, but I'm worried about how to grow. Yeah. And it's a very real thing. I don't know what he did after that point.

00;19;56;22 - 00;19;58;06
Annie
I didn't write him about about him again.

00;19;58;06 - 00;20;00;08
Mark
But, he's got a school now. Oh.

00;20;00;08 - 00;20;00;27
Annie
Does he.

00;20;00;29 - 00;20;04;01
Mark
Oh, he's teaching a I think it's on the West Coast. Okay.

00;20;04;01 - 00;20;04;22
Annie
Right.

00;20;04;24 - 00;20;08;11
Mark
But he he won, Cell Bell design awards twice.

00;20;08;11 - 00;20;09;16
Annie
Yeah. Not hard.

00;20;09;21 - 00;20;12;02
Mark
And I got to hold his pieces in my hand, and I'm like.

00;20;12;02 - 00;20;15;26
Annie
And rub your fingers over the top of it. Yeah, I know.

00;20;15;29 - 00;20;19;00
Mark
It was an amazing guy. Really amazing artist. Yeah.

00;20;19;00 - 00;20;38;04
Annie
Yeah, he was incredible. Very kind. Very open. Gosh, I'm trying to say there's so many, many, many, many. I was looking through my index. I'm one of those crazy people. I keep an index of everybody I've written about and all my stories. And I was like, wow, I did a lot of stories. One story, that I did, which was not for Laboratory Journal.

00;20;38;04 - 00;20;58;24
Annie
It was for a magazine called Indian Artist Magazine. I think in those days, later turned into a book, from an aquatic guy who is the niece of Charles Elena. So, I kind of interviewed her briefly for another book I was working on and then did that story. And then about ten years later, she called and said, I'm ready for a book.

00;20;58;24 - 00;21;32;24
Annie
I custom published books. And when I went to Hopi to interview her, especially for the book, because I was there for 5 or 6 days, you know, there's something magical that happens when you're with any artist, really, for a lengthy period of time, because they're even if they have, even if they're quite talkative or have a huge ego, which we know some artists have, something different happens when you give them the length of time to talk about their work, and you sort of hold it in this container for them.

00;21;32;26 - 00;21;58;28
Annie
They begin to run out of gas from their usual story, which is going on in their mind and which is what they're telling people. And then there's this space where they return to, why am I doing this? I remembered that thing in the beginning. That challenge, I think I can handle it now. You know, this magical segue happens after they've run out of the first reservoir of the usual stuff they talk about.

00;21;59;00 - 00;22;04;15
Annie
And that's where the interview becomes transformative and not just informational.

00;22;04;19 - 00;22;06;10
Mark
Is it kind of like the source?

00;22;06;12 - 00;22;07;17
Annie
Yeah. Like when they go back to it.

00;22;07;18 - 00;22;08;12
Mark
You go back to the.

00;22;08;12 - 00;22;09;18
Annie
Source. Yeah.

00;22;09;20 - 00;22;10;03
Mark
So yeah.

00;22;10;04 - 00;22;30;24
Annie
My first book I did was a woman who does, woodblock printmaking. And so she had studied in Japan, and by the time I met her, she had probably been back for, I don't know, ten years or something and lives in Texas. And so a lot of her subject matter was very southwestern. Yeah. And I would have to say I didn't totally love the subject matter, but it totally sold for her.

00;22;30;24 - 00;22;48;27
Annie
It was great, right? She was so gifted and so talented. And when I went to work on her, I think I interviewed her for southwest Art magazine, and then she became my first book. But she took me into her farmhouse outside of the studio, walked me into her bedroom, and whoa there. What? There was. Yeah, that was it.

00;22;48;27 - 00;22;53;18
Annie
That was the source. And I just said, what's it going to take to get you back there?

00;22;53;18 - 00;22;54;06
Fiona
Right.

00;22;54;08 - 00;23;07;09
Annie
And it was, woodblock called Naha morning. And I've written three books about her, and I finally got her to recreate that piece in the third book. It took three books. I'm like, I'm not going away.

00;23;07;10 - 00;23;07;21
Mark
But you did.

00;23;07;21 - 00;23;08;20
Annie
It until you get.

00;23;08;20 - 00;23;10;04
Annie
This piece, you know.

00;23;10;07 - 00;23;20;21
Annie
Get back to the source of why you did it. And it was really cool because she did. And then she redid it with all these different colors. And so, you know, 40, 50 years later, it's.

00;23;20;21 - 00;23;21;24
Mark
A new source.

00;23;21;26 - 00;23;28;13
Annie
Exactly. But it was still there. And she really got about what was happening in her at that time when she was studying. So it was really beautiful.

00;23;28;16 - 00;23;30;00
Mark
That's awesome man. Yeah.

00;23;30;03 - 00;23;31;20
Annie
Yeah, that's that's the best part is.

00;23;31;21 - 00;23;39;13
Mark
How much there's so much new talent coming up too. I mean, it's it exists. It's it's in flux. And in this the stories are never going to end.

00;23;39;15 - 00;24;08;29
Annie
Yeah. Well, I wonder, so now that these magazines and the, you know, the world is faster and we're looking at social media and, you know, the, the craft shows, I think they kind of died down a bit during Covid. They're coming back. Whatever. I don't know where this new generation goes with this because, you know, what worries me is sometimes I see such a focus on content and social media that I don't know if they have the time to really check in with their source.

00;24;08;29 - 00;24;12;11
Annie
Yeah. And what are they creating and why?

00;24;12;13 - 00;24;25;05
Mark
Yeah, and I think that's probably something they're trying to figure out themselves. And I know there's a limited number of influencers out there talking about that.

00;24;25;07 - 00;24;25;23
Speaker 4


00;24;25;25 - 00;24;28;14
Mark
I think that's the way I'm trying to say it.

00;24;28;16 - 00;24;29;12
Annie
Well, right.

00;24;29;12 - 00;24;44;24
Mark
You know what I mean? Because when I went to art school, I mean, that was a big thing. Yeah. My graduate program, my, Robert Glover, he's like, why do you do this? And I'm like, I just like making cool stuff, bro. You know? It's like, what's the big deal? And he drilled me. He drilled me. He drilled means why, why, why it why.

00;24;44;24 - 00;24;49;29
Mark
Right. And then we got to that source, you know. And how much of that is actually happening now?

00;24;50;01 - 00;24;58;10
Annie
So let me ask you, when you were doing this, did you didn't have, I'm guessing here you didn't have the impression of, I'm in, get out of art school and make a living as an artist, right?

00;24;58;16 - 00;24;59;00
Mark
No.

00;24;59;00 - 00;25;25;06
Annie
You thought you were going to teach? Yeah, right. Exactly. So that's probably the first ten years of me interviewing jewelry designers. I kept hearing, oh, I went out and I became a teacher and teacher. Teacher. So with, you know, not Etsy. Etsy is great, but with Etsy and all these other venues that people can sell, I think there was this idea of, oh, I can just now go and start selling and so as soon as you turn your art into.

00;25;25;07 - 00;25;25;20
Mark
A product.

00;25;25;21 - 00;25;33;27
Annie
A product, it's a different world. Yeah, it's a really different world. And so I don't know if they have that connection that you're talking about. Those influences.

00;25;34;03 - 00;25;35;03
Mark
That's something to consider.

00;25;35;08 - 00;25;45;22
Fiona
Yeah. They've sort of lost some of the thought behind what goes into that. It's more focusing on what's going to sell, not why are they making.

00;25;45;26 - 00;25;46;12
Mark
The mean.

00;25;46;14 - 00;25;49;09
Fiona
Exactly. Yeah. Right. For their selves.

00;25;49;11 - 00;26;15;25
Annie
Right. Yeah. Exactly. So when I started out as a as a writer, I didn't have any fantasy that I was going to become Hemingway or, you know, something like that. I knew it was in the marketplace and it was a job, and I don't know how I knew that it might have been just interning at ad agencies and being in a meeting where I saw some pretty crazy behavior between clients and and executives and thought, this isn't fun.

00;26;15;25 - 00;26;17;05
Annie
Why are they doing this?

00;26;17;08 - 00;26;18;00
Annie
You know.

00;26;18;02 - 00;26;46;26
Annie
And the key thing I realized was don't become too attached to your writing. Don't become too sensitive because you want to keep doing this for a living. Don't let it hurt your feelings. So I had to separate the work I did that mattered versus what I was putting out there. Even though I cared about obviously my interviews, I wasn't emotionally attached personally, which I think helped me, have the goal of making the interview in the story be more transformational for the artist?

00;26;46;26 - 00;26;48;26
Annie
Because it wasn't about me. It was always about.

00;26;48;26 - 00;26;49;28
Mark
Them and their story.

00;26;49;28 - 00;27;02;19
Annie
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it was good. Yeah, yeah. But that's why the books helped, because then I had lots of pages. I didn't have to just have 250 words or 1500 words and wrap it up. Right. I could really get into it.

00;27;02;22 - 00;27;03;19
Mark
Go to your source.

00;27;03;22 - 00;27;06;02
Annie
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

00;27;06;04 - 00;27;12;20
Fiona
So having so many achievements, so many things you've done.

00;27;12;22 - 00;27;16;23
Annie
Okay. They actually oh my gosh.

00;27;16;25 - 00;27;57;06
Fiona
How has you've had such a large impact on those that you've written about, those that have read your writings and your other artistic work you've done as well, myself included? How has that sort of impacted how you proceed going forward? How does one project to the next? What are some of those key things that a transformation you've seen occur that you've then sort of taken and internalized and been able to say, oh, wow, and take that to that next step and continue to create work that's been inspiring.

00;27;57;08 - 00;28;05;13
Fiona
What is sort of some key moments that you can think of where you've really had sort of that moment yourself.

00;28;05;16 - 00;28;24;11
Annie
That's such that's a great question. And believe me, I do not feel the first part of what you said. So I've never felt I have an impact or anything. And someone once said you're only as good as your last story and that's usually how I wake up. So I wake up like I've done nothing. And there would be days where I'd force myself go back and look at that index list, look at that portfolio.

00;28;24;11 - 00;28;49;29
Annie
Oh yeah, I did do something last week. You know, I am never sitting there feeling like I've done something big or whatever, but I think that, the artists I interviewed, they also inspired me and they fed me because they had the courage to do what they were doing. And in a way I didn't, because I realized that all the things I wanted to write and I had put my fiber art aside, all of these things.

00;28;49;29 - 00;29;16;22
Annie
I wasn't living a balanced life. I was supporting them, living a balanced life. So after a period of time, I realized I'm not going to feel like a whole person until I make this a whole picture. So I started, two things. One, by the time you got older. So as I was a single mom from, like day one, by the time you got older, I was freer to do things like take a course at Penland and really explore my own craft.

00;29;16;24 - 00;29;40;00
Annie
And I also, I made a pact with whoever is out there. The universe. God, whatever, saying, okay, man, this has to start meaning more. Yeah. You know, and just I'll keep doing it, but it needs to start meaning more because, you know, I would be places I'd go to a writing group and people would, be talking about how to get published.

00;29;40;03 - 00;29;57;21
Annie
And that was never a problem for me, which was weird. So I thought, okay, this is somehow in my destiny. I'm going to keep doing it. But man, I got to like it too. And so that's where the books helped. So I got to be able to explore something deeper. And I think also bringing my own work into it helped.

00;29;57;23 - 00;30;39;01
Fiona
In growing up, seeing you doing a lot of this work. It's always been such a visual example. But to you have a way of going about projects that were sort of similar to jewelry and similar to writing, when you you see the finished product, you don't see the process of how it's formed. And you have always had this elegant way of creating a visual throughout the process about the planning, the structure, how things sort of go from one step to the next, and it builds upon itself.

00;30;39;04 - 00;30;45;16
Fiona
You. It's very understated how much of that really goes into everything that you've done.

00;30;45;17 - 00;30;57;23
Annie
Oh my gosh, thank you. Okay, I'm stop it. So I love producing things. I love producing things. It doesn't even matter what it is. I love producing things. And I think my superpower is looking ahead.

00;30;57;26 - 00;30;59;09
Mark
Yeah, yeah, I seen the finished I.

00;30;59;13 - 00;31;26;14
Annie
Totally I'm very visual, but I see every step. I see the checklist. I'm constantly revamping the checklist. I'm seeing all the parts moving. I'm able to hold that all at the same time and even manage other people. Like on a book project, there might be 5 to 10 people or a printer in another country. There's something about that rhythm that feels really comfortable to me, although it's super stressful sometimes, but I see it.

00;31;26;16 - 00;31;47;14
Annie
So I think when I was younger, you know, when I was like 6 or 7, I wanted to make books. I didn't just want to write books, I wanted to make them. And I had this little printing press in my closet. And then when I was about 12, I think I would ride my bike after school sometimes this little bookshop near where I lived.

00;31;47;17 - 00;32;07;12
Annie
And I saw this perfect book one day, and it was a Zen meditation book, and I think I bought it less for the subject matter and more for the book itself. The covers were made out of balsa wood and it had calligraphy on it with this red silk binding. And I just said, that's a beautiful book. Yeah, I want to make that.

00;32;07;15 - 00;32;15;04
Annie
So ironically, the first artist I wrote about, she entertain the idea of you make balsa. What covers when I told her this.

00;32;15;07 - 00;32;15;18
Annie
Which would.

00;32;15;18 - 00;32;35;06
Annie
Fit perfectly with being a woodblock artist, but obviously not affordable. But I think there was this concept of making the whole package and that book, like, set that spark for me. So whether it's a story or a book or a weaving, I'm a weaver. I'm able to sort of see the process of it. And I really love that.

00;32;35;08 - 00;33;07;04
Fiona
And it very much comes through in the finished product, like seeing you make the most beautiful coffee table books, I'm sure. Marcus, pretty sure I've shown you a couple. Thank you. There's this elegance and thought that goes into it you that displays who the book is about. But also it has its own presence. It is art in itself to display an artist.

00;33;07;07 - 00;33;28;07
Annie
And it's that's so beautiful. It is a living thing. It's definitely embodied. But see, artwork is that way too. And we've seen some paintings that feel kind of dead and we've seen some sculptures. We're like, why is that there on the side of the road? There's jewelry that you just can't get enough of, and it evolves and grows as you wear it.

00;33;28;07 - 00;33;31;01
Annie
And it's just this living thing.

00;33;31;01 - 00;33;31;16
Mark
Yeah.

00;33;31;19 - 00;33;51;10
Annie
It's undeniable. Right? Yeah. So I think I want that in what I create. And early on, when I first became a freelancer, I got an assignment and that's how I had to do this kind of dual thing and have a pseudonym and all of this because it was a conflict of interest. But I remember thinking, oh, I totally see this.

00;33;51;12 - 00;33;59;28
Annie
Awesome, I can do this. And then I got another assignment and I struggled and I said, I can't see it finished. Yeah. And I said, I can't do it. I couldn't see it. You know what I'm talking about.

00;33;59;28 - 00;34;15;06
Mark
Oh I know, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. I get halfway through a project like and it's gone right. And it sits on my bench and you know, like, maybe one day I'll get back to it and it'll become something else or, yeah, something else. But once you lose that spark, once you lose that vision, it's it's dead.

00;34;15;12 - 00;34;22;25
Mark
Yeah. It's dead. I tell my students, I'm like, you got to go for it, man. You you stop. Right? If you take too long, it's going to die on you.

00;34;22;25 - 00;34;25;29
Annie
So, yeah, that's true. And you can't can't overdo it. Then you.

00;34;25;29 - 00;34;27;28
Annie
Kill it. Exactly. Yeah. Or if it's.

00;34;27;28 - 00;34;52;24
Fiona
Going in the wrong direction. I've had many times where I've been working on a project and just keep going. Keep going to the point of almost insanity, right? And you'll say, no, that's not it yet, right? Right. And that's when I was able to get there and get to the piece that it needed to be. Yeah, because sometimes you're just going in the wrong direction.

00;34;52;24 - 00;34;54;24
Fiona
Yeah. And you don't realize it. Yeah.

00;34;54;24 - 00;35;12;14
Annie
Or you've forgotten something we talked about there was, I guess he was a sculptor, but he also made jewelry pendants out of his sculpture. Bill whirl, he has a gallery or did at one point in San Fe, and I was doing a story about him, I think it was for southwest Art magazine, and he lived in Texas, and he was going to be in Santa Fe.

00;35;12;16 - 00;35;31;07
Annie
And I thought, oh my gosh, I've got to take this guy somewhere. How can I make this interesting? So a lot of his pieces were these warriors, like from petroglyphs that he found in caves. And I thought, well, I'm going to this is when we could do this. I'm going to drive him down to those dinosaur rocks and gals, Dale, and I'm going to climb him up there and show them petroglyphs.

00;35;31;07 - 00;35;55;29
Annie
We could actually do that at one point. Now it's fenced off, but, took him up there and he was so, like, excited to see all these pieces. And he would always do these pieces with holding a full moon. And I said, have you ever done one with the new moon? Yeah. And he just looked at me sort of dumbfounded, and I said, you know, women and cycles and tribes, you know, this is goes back through history.

00;35;56;02 - 00;36;00;12
Annie
He was so excited and went right back and did one with the New moon.

00;36;00;14 - 00;36;02;28
Annie
And I've, that's so cool.

00;36;03;01 - 00;36;11;05
Annie
So and then he sold it as a pendant because he really wanted to get that out there. So it was something that he just hadn't quite seen, but he was already doing it.

00;36;11;06 - 00;36;13;09
Mark
Right? Right. Yeah. Just a different version.

00;36;13;12 - 00;36;38;23
Annie
You know, different perspectives that you can bring to it. So yeah. And I think, Mark, you said something before we started, an article that I did about found objects. Oh, yes. And recycled work and this just is, you know, one comment that, you know, I'm thinking about your obviously where at Rio, I call it Rio, but you have some of the world's best tools here and some things that some artists couldn't afford and some that are extremely accessible.

00;36;38;25 - 00;36;40;23
Annie
Jewelry making is so accessible.

00;36;40;23 - 00;36;41;11
Mark
Oh yeah.

00;36;41;13 - 00;37;01;20
Annie
And you can make it from anything. Anything. Macaroni or anything. In fact, you did when you were little macaroni wire, found objects, trash, anything. And so that is also inspirational when you see people take something and make something beautiful and it wasn't, you know, precious metals or.

00;37;01;20 - 00;37;02;13
Mark
But now it is.

00;37;02;19 - 00;37;05;13
Annie
Yeah. Now it is once they've done it. Absolutely.

00;37;05;16 - 00;37;28;06
Fiona
So on that note, what's something that if you were speaking to someone getting into this, a newer generation, the new sort of someone approaching how to do this, what's something that you would say to inspire them, something that you would say is your biggest inspiration about it?

00;37;28;09 - 00;37;33;22
Annie
Well, one thing I would say is if you can find an archive of some lapidary journal magazines.

00;37;33;24 - 00;37;34;11
Mark
They're out there.

00;37;34;14 - 00;37;59;22
Annie
Yeah, they're totally out there. And dive into it. Look at who these greats were and big names and people who are up and coming. Look at those ads with the tools. Look at what was being sold then and what people were working with. It's kind of like old skis, I guess, if yours gear. But, you know, really go back to what was before you because, you know, we've artists have done that for years, you know, apprenticed with masters and followed that lead.

00;37;59;22 - 00;38;24;12
Annie
I would say really do that. Always listen to that voice inside. And if there's a time to turn off the social media on the phone, do that and like, use some other, some other way that you usually create, like if you're someone who sits down at the bench and just starts hammering, take a sketchbook and go on a walk and sit down and draw a piece of jewelry.

00;38;24;12 - 00;38;44;11
Annie
Do something different than the way you usually do it, and some spark might happen. I mean, in the old days when things weren't as fast, I would always handwrite the first page or two of a story because something happened so much differently than when when it was coming from my hand, right then when I was sitting at a keyboard.

00;38;44;14 - 00;38;48;06
Annie
So. Okay. Yeah, let's say you made me do that.

00;38;48;09 - 00;39;04;26
Fiona
Wonderful. Yeah. And one last question for you. We've talked a lot about work you've done in the past, people you've talked with in the past, and looking forwards. What are some projects that you might be working on right now.

00;39;04;29 - 00;39;05;24
Annie
In terms of.

00;39;05;24 - 00;39;09;09
Fiona
Jewelry, in terms of your own work?

00;39;09;11 - 00;39;12;15
Annie
You hinting at you want me to write my own book?

00;39;12;17 - 00;39;12;27
Annie
Yes.

00;39;12;27 - 00;39;15;20
Annie
That I am going to do that.

00;39;15;22 - 00;39;17;10
Annie
Good.

00;39;17;12 - 00;39;18;26
Annie
I am working on that. Yes.

00;39;18;26 - 00;39;20;29
Annie
Yes.

00;39;21;02 - 00;39;44;11
Annie
Yeah, probably that, something collaborative. I do do workshops sometimes based on intuitive creativity. And so it's really great to work with people with modalities they're not used to. So yeah, tapestry weaving, journaling for people who don't like to write or they say they're, you know, they're afraid things like that. So probably a little more of that just to get the juices going with other people.

00;39;44;14 - 00;39;51;08
Fiona
Thank you any for joining us here. Today was wonderful to have you tell the audience a little bit about how they can find you.

00;39;51;09 - 00;40;11;18
Annie
Okay. Well, I have a website weaving and foraging.com. It's also my handle on Instagram. And I just want to thank you for inviting me here because I had you on my podcast when you were very young as a burgeoning jewelry designer, and I think I really made you freeze. So this has been so delightful.

00;40;11;18 - 00;40;14;01
Annie
To be invited to your podcast.

00;40;14;03 - 00;40;14;21
Mark
This is awesome.

00;40;14;27 - 00;40;16;15
Annie
I just love that. Oh, it's so.

00;40;16;15 - 00;40;19;19
Fiona
Wonderful having you here. We've really, really loved it. You're just the.

00;40;19;19 - 00;40;19;29
Annie
Bomb.

00;40;20;01 - 00;40;22;24
Annie
So thank you.

00;40;22;26 - 00;40;25;18
Annie
Thank you for joining us. Thank you to I'm so glad.

00;40;25;22 - 00;40;27;22
Mark
It's good to be here too. Thank you. Thank you.

00;40;27;25 - 00;40;53;14
Fiona
That's a wrap for today's episode. A huge thank you to our guest, Annie Osborne, for sharing her insights. To learn more about Annie and her work, visit Weaving in fortune.com and Instagram at Weaving and Forging. Big thanks to our sponsor jars. Don't forget to use promo code Rio 20 at checkout for 20% off select gears Bench Makers. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to subscribe and leave a five star review.

00;40;53;14 - 00;43;56;26
Fiona
It helps us grow and bring you more amazing content. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

00;43;56;28 - 00;44;03;01
Annie
He came back a few hours later, and he said. So. What do you really do?

00;44;03;03 - 00;44;03;27
Annie
In this thing?

00;44;03;29 - 00;44;34;11
Annie
Well, I've been trying to hide. This is it. Come on over here. I've got someone to introduce you to. So he walked me across the street and introduced me to some of the editors. And he said, this is where you're going to stay right now. I don't I don't need you back.

00;44;34;13 - 00;44;43;07
Annie
I was there with them, and I was experiencing that life and seeing it. And it was hard. It's very hard to make a living on $40 stories and live in Santa Fe.

00;44;43;10 - 00;44;50;17
Annie
Oh, yeah.

00;44;50;19 - 00;45;20;17
Annie
And there was something instantly about when I was in that studio with that jewelry designer. It was totally different than being in a painters studio. It totally different. The tools, everything that I came to call sort of big mind where when you see a jeweler at a bench, there are all these thoughts going on. So there's, fear, anxiety, design skill.

00;45;20;19 - 00;47;12;23
Annie
Luck, all kinds of things that are in this huge head. Right? And all of it is being focused down to this tiny little thing in the workbench.

00;47;12;25 - 00;47;38;24
Annie
Jewelry designers had to spend a fortune to have professional photos taken. And you really had to make those images matter. I mean, it could be several thousand dollars to find a photographer, and you had to make sure. Wow, are these my six best pieces? Yeah. What if I leave something out? Some people would just try so hard and they would go and they'd spend a bundle and they'd send me 12 images and one would be used.

00;47;38;24 - 00;47;40;12
Annie
And this was heartbreaking for me to see.