S2-03: Matthieu Cheminée, Imprinting Tradition & Technique

Artist, author, educator and Toolbox Initiative cofounder Matthieu Cheminée is a man of many talents, each informed by his first true love, hand stamping. His award-winning designs feature his signature “stampclastic” style, born out of learning experiences with native artists in Taos, New Mexico and Mali in Western Africa. Throughout his world travels, the Parisian-born jeweler developed a deep appreciation for his fellow artisans and their ability to create stunning works using only the most basic of tools. Matthieu joins host Courtney Gray to discuss his passion for preserving these generational traditions and the importance he places on sharing the gifts of knowledge and know-how.

Transcript

Courtney Gray - host:

Born in Paris, Matthieu moved to New Mexico at age 19, where he studied Navajo, Hopi, and Zuni jewelry techniques. Before spending several years working with jewelers in Africa. Upon viewing the talents of African artisans and the very few tools they possessed, Matthieu helped co-found the Toolbox Initiative alongside jeweler and educator Tim Mcreight. This non-profit organization collects gently used tools from jewelers across the globe, and delivers them to jewelers in need in West Africa.

Courtney Gray - host:

Over many years of experimentation with stamps, Matthieu has developed a form of stamping called tessellation, in which he creates patterns that fill entire pieces of metal with stunning results. Matthieu has been teaching jewelry making in Montreal, Quebec, and offering workshops internationally for the past 15 years. He recently opened his own school in Southern Quebec, award winning stamper Matthieu Cheminee, author of two books, Legacy: Jewelry Techniques of West Africa, and The Art of Stamping. Matthieu, we're so excited to have you here today on For the Love of Jewelers, excited to connect with you. It's been a while happy to see you face to face. So welcome.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Well, thank you, I'm very excited as well.

Courtney Gray - host:

Well, it'd be really good to catch up. I want to give everybody an opportunity to really hear from you. There's just so many facets I want to go through with you today. But, we'll see where this journey takes us. My first question for you Matthieu is, what do you consider yourself in? A jeweler? A metal smith? What is the name? When people ask what you do?

Matthieu Cheminee:

I love metal smiths.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah.

Matthieu Cheminee:

I think for me that's the right term. And it's funny because in French, there is not such a term. So it's a little bit difficult. I'm not joaillier or bijoutier. So I think several smith is really or even metal smiths I love metal smiths yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Seems to feel right to you.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, it does.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, there's so much to talk around nomenclature of what we call ourselves. So I think that's very interesting, to get the perspectives of different makers. How did you learn about jewelry? When did that begin for you?

Matthieu Cheminee:

It really begins, I think the first time when I went to New Mexico to visit. I had a great aunt that was a painter in New Mexico in Taos. She was in the same group as Georgia O'Keeffe, and she bought an old pueblo house and she moved there in a van and start painting there. And so when I visited her in Taos, there used to be a lot of beautiful shop on the plaza. And so I would walk around and see all that Navajo, Hopi, and Zuni jewelry and, I just totally fell in love with it. Before that I had, I think my first real connection was my mom, she had a beautiful collection of jewelry from around the world.

Matthieu Cheminee:

My dad was a volcanologist, so he will travel to Afghanistan, to everywhere. And every trip he will bring actually pieces of jewelry for my mom. So she had this huge showcase of Afghan pieces. A collection of crosses from Ethiopia, and I always was so fascinated by it. And I think that was the first little attraction to jewelry, but it came really when I went to New Mexico, that's when I realized the bigger connection, I think.

Courtney Gray - host:

When was that when you landed in New Mexico, you were 19 right?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, the first time I went, I was 17. And then, I finished my Baccalaureate de French exam, which I missed. But then I convinced my parents that I could go to Taos and learn and pass it in Los Angeles. So I did that. Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

So you started with that style of jewelry? Was that the first style that you learned? And-

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, right away stamping first thing.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah. Okay. How do you make decisions with the stamping in particular? This is something that, from a design perspective, I'd love to hear from you. How do you make a commitment, when you're going down this design path with a stamp? Your work is so precise, and it looks very measured and it was purposeful, so to speak. How do you make that commitment to the textures and patterns?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Well, thank you, but it actually, it took 20 years to get there I think. I first when I was doing stamping, I was doing more Navajo style stamping, as decoration and then just straight lines of stamp on each side to make a pattern and for years I was just doing that. And the tessellation pathway, the texture just happened maybe six, seven years ago only. Where I was, I had a big sheet of silver and I started to fill the whole thing. And it, yeah. It evaluated. There were an evaluation from that. But it's, that's when it started. And now the way I lay it is I make one stamp, and I stamp one direction. And then, I'll create another stamp that fits whatever opening days left, and come back the other ways. So, it's really straightforward. Just I don't have to think about it, make my lines and stamp.

Courtney Gray - host:

Comes very natural in the design process. Yeah. And does it leave a lot of room for playfulness in your mind or?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, it's almost like a meditation I have, it takes few hours to stamp a sheet of silver. So it's plenty of time to think about other thing and, but I'm always having a hard time doing the same thing. It seems it's so repetitive. So, you're doing it but so I spend half an hour and I'll do something totally different. Work on another part of the process like bending the bracelet solderings, bezel, anything but, so I always give myself half an hour of stamping and then change.

Courtney Gray - host:

Nice. Yeah, I think that's pretty common for makers is, keep a couple of irons in the fire, and move back and forth. So we keep ourselves. What is that we keep ourselves flowing or entertained?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, I think it's, entertain is a good one. Or maybe just keep it alive. I mean, if I will do the same thing I think I will get bored a little bit. And if you look at on my bench, there is probably 20 projects. There's, it's just I need to move from one and another. I never start a piece and finish it.

Courtney Gray - host:

Are you making for custom work for a lot of other clients right now? Or what is your main, when you're not teaching or writing or working in West Africa with the jewelers there? What work are you producing?

Matthieu Cheminee:

I do very little order. I like to make, I'm a bit of a snob I guess. I like to make what I like. And then if somebody wants it, that's great. I mean, I hope they do. So I really, I'm having hard time doing what someone wants. And also this way, everybody's happy. Because, when you do some, we all, the client and I, we don't always have the same vision of what it's going to look like. And I don't draw well, and I don't like drawing so much. So I like to just work straight in metal. And if the person likes it, I think it's fantastic. If not, and I don't mind remelting a piece and change it around and but I like to yeah. So I will do pieces send it to galleries, mostly. And then few orders here and there. But only if the person, like one bracelet and they want to change a tiny bit I will do that. But that's pretty much it. Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, make what you want and then put it out there.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, that custom thing is a whole other ball game.

Matthieu Cheminee:

It is and, I don't think, it takes a lot of courage, I think to do custom work. And, you need to have a mindset for that a little bit. Where and maybe I'm too all over the place to, follow a straight line of what the person would want maybe. Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

It's a good way to put it like that. So let's talk about tools a little bit. I love that so you're doing mostly gallery work and, what are your main? What are your favorite tools on your bench? I know that you work with stamps.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, lots of stamps. I like, I think, favorite tools has to be, I have a Tuareg hammer, somebody gave me once just beautiful handmade hammer that is just perfect. For forging for anything. It's just a perfect hammer. So I'm really loving that. And one of the thing I love the most is the bench pin. So I often make, I always make my own bench pin. And I always try to find a nice piece of wood. And so yeah. I met Philly, a jeweler from Atlanta. And he just sent me, he saw my bench pin when we did a class, and he sent me a nice big piece of wood to make bench pins. So that was very sweet.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, what is so important to you about the pin, the shape, or the material itself?

Matthieu Cheminee:

It's what I look at most of the day, so I think it needs to be attractive, to some extent. And I like them thick. And I like yeah, it's like, I did when I was in Africa, I did hundreds of picture of bench pins. I think they just each one represents someone and it's, almost a portrait. So they're very important for me. Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah. I love that. And it's your main support. I mean, that is the focal point of the bench. It's also that part of the bench that becomes your support system for what you're working on.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Your hands and everything.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, I like that. All right.

Matthieu Cheminee:

That old part. Sorry, I cut you. That old part of the bench, even the circle. So I like to make, I made all of my benches and so the just the circle where you I like it big, like the old fashioned bench in Europe, where you actually are inside the bench. And then you're right in front of your bench pin. I love that.

Courtney Gray - host:

Like with the scoop? Like the-

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

The rounded scoop?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Well now we're going to have to post some pictures of Matthieu's bench. I think that would be something that people would like to see. Or do a studio tour with you soon, I would love that. And you're working on a school right now. How many benches are you going to include in your personal school?

Matthieu Cheminee:

So the school, I did. For now, I did four benches, because of COVID. Because I was open the last I mean, October, November now we're in, shut down. So I looked closed again. But I have four benches but they're big benches, they're five feet by six feet each of them. And there is a plexiglass all around. So for that purpose, I didn't want more people, each of those bench later on can be can receive two person, and I can add two more. So ideally not I don't want more than, eight or 10 places, I like to keep it small.

Courtney Gray - host:

Oh! That's lovely. That's exciting. Well, I want to talk to you more about education, but first I want to get back to talking about tools and the basic. One of the things that I just love is watching your videos from the Toolbox Initiative and we're going to share more with our community about what's going on with the Toolbox. So sit tight but I want to talk to you about learning with basic tools. I know when Tim came down and I got a chance to see how he teaches and it was really fascinating to me then I mean, how we're so tool flooded in this industry, there's so many things that we become addicted to wanting to the new tool, the new shiny thing that we think is going to make it easier to work etcetera. Talk to us a little bit about your approach to tool selection.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah it's funny we had a talk with Tim not long ago about that people showing collection of hammers, and how we have 20, 25 hammer but, at the end of the day we use one or two which meant for me I think it's fantastic that people have big collection of hammers because when they realize they don't need them they'll send it to the Toolbox. No but I really, I think that's what attracted me in the first place to jewelry making. Either way in New Mexico, or in Africa is that able to make something with very little tools. Because I mean and also to have little tools I find what it allows you to be able to be anywhere and make something. To travel, to spend time on the beach and just create something.

Matthieu Cheminee:

If you have too many tools you cannot move around you're stuck. But if you have a saw, a file, a hammer and an anvil and few other little thing, and also it pushes you to learn the basic more of the basic of the technique. I'm taking example forging, I mean you can just make your own, sheet several wire with just a hammer, and you don't need anything else. So I think the minimum, I love the idea of working with very little. Like everyone else, I have way too many tools. And I have a lot of tools. And I'm not different. I love gadgets, I love new tools. But I love the idea to be able to do things with very little tools. That's pretty much what it is.

Courtney Gray - host:

When you're teaching, do you use that same approach, as if, you were going to show a student who could, how to work with what they have, rather than thinking they need to add to the Toolbox?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah. They finally, each student at my new school that their Toolbox is very simple. They have few little tools. And I like the idea for them, to make something from scratch. So we always, we do. We pull the and get everything from beginning to end with very little tool. So, that's yeah. I think it's a good way to learn. And then you can go on and add to it, but to learn with the basic tools is I think it's very important.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of talk tune, thesis and studies out there about the importance of making things with your hands. And, especially right now in such a digital forward age that we're in and heading deeper into. Do you mind talking a little bit about I don't know, your belief around that too? And the importance I'm sure, as an educator that's important to you, obviously.

Matthieu Cheminee:

About the new technologies?

Courtney Gray - host:

No more about the importance of keeping the hand skills. Let me rephrase that question. What is the importance in your mind of making things with tools and with your hands in this digital forward age?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Well, I think it's important to not forget. For me that's the main thing, and that's why even all the books I'm working on, it's all about keeping those technique alives. And I think, if we use more and more machines, I have nothing against new technology, I love 3D printing, for some stuff, I am open to all of that, but at the same time, one should not take away from the other. And I think, it's very important to keep that feeling. Also, it's so beautiful to work with your hand, and to make something straight from hand. There is nothing, I think more fulfilling for me to do that. So, but also to, we have a tendency, and you see that in Europe and anywhere in the world that with new technology, we lose techniques, and we lose, chain making. In the old days, everybody used to know how to make a chain.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Today, we know how to make a loop solder inside a loop. But all the other chain made by machine, we forgot, how things are made. So that's the idea is to just keep all of those techniques that it took generation to learn and to create to just keep it. Yeah, to keep them alive. And for people to still make them I think it's very important.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, these are, things that should be passed on techniques that, go way back, I mean, to the beginning of time. And you know that I agree with you Matthieu, I think the more technology comes in, the more we can get away from sitting down and creating the patience to, fabricate something from scratch, like you're saying. So...

Matthieu Cheminee:

You see that, in many things. I mean, in buildings, old buildings in stone hearth, the stoneware and cut and there is a different feeling to it, than something that we see today, even now they're starting to do 3D printing of buildings. All of it that is, I think it's important to have as a space for all of those, but we should not forget how things are done. I find it's very important.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, I feel like it's the base of engineering is to actually make it, and then you begin to understand how to include the digital the tech into to the process. So Matthieu, for a minute, let's talk about the moment you decided to connect with Tim Mcreight. And form the Toolbox Initiative. Can you tell us what, I feel there's this moment where things come to you and it's like, "We have to do this." Can you tell us what that experience was like?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, it was. It's been one of the best experience actually the old process with Tim. Well it started when, I wanted to do a book on African jewelry technique and one day I called Tim and I was, I called Brynmorgen Press. And I was so surprised that Tim answered the phone and like most of the young jeweler, they always been quite a star. So it's, I was really blown away that Tim Mcreight will answer his own phone, I was sure he had secretary and all of that. So anyway, we talked about the book. And he said, "When you be ready, you'll call me." So I think it took a couple years, and I called him back. And anyway, to make a long story short, we met in [inaudible 00:54:28], and I showed him everything I worked on, and right away he was really into it, and agreed to do a book and a DVD. And so that was fantastic. I could not believe it.

Matthieu Cheminee:

But I needed few more techniques for the book. And one of them, I needed to go to Senegal. And I told Tim I said, "Would you want to come with me to Senegal and have that experience?" And right away, he jumped on it and said, "Yes." So we organized a trip. And before going to Senegal, I told him, I said, "Every time I go, I bring few tools or a little bit of silver so we can give it away to jewelers that might need it." And which I've been doing for years.

Matthieu Cheminee:

And so we went with fantastic trip. And when we were in Senegal, one day Tim, he said, "We should do that in a bigger scale, and we should include all the jewelers in North America that maybe want to give tools." So, that's really how it started. And when we came back, we worked on the process of how we could do it. And I mean, what a better person to do it with Tim, he is so well known and so many connection and he is so, efficient at doing anything he is doing is so efficient that it made that project just so easy.

Courtney Gray - host:

What a wonderful connection. And I know you guys have become very close, and I'm sure things are on pause right now with the Toolbox Initiative. And if you guys out there listening aren't familiar, you need to really look into what Matthieu and Tim have created here and the opportunity for others to share through them with this initiative. Tell us a little bit, real quickly how people can find out more about and stay in tune. Matthieu, should they follow you?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, we have a Toolbox Initiative on Facebook, they can follow on that. And it's a great way to see what we do, because we're always posting on our Facebook page. On the website, that's more information and for donation as well. So it's a toolboxinitiative.org I believe, but and on YouTube, we post a lot of videos on techniques and our trips on YouTube channel of the Toolbox. And that's a great way to do it. And yeah, with COVID actually, we've been on pause from going but we've been very busy, the last year. We've been quite blessed that so many people have been generous and give money. So we were able to actually financially help hundreds of jewelers this past year.

Courtney Gray - host:

Wow!

Matthieu Cheminee:

So that was fantastic. 

Courtney Gray - host:

Oh! That's awesome. That is such a blessing. I'm glad to hear you're still able to, provide that assistance, even without being connected in person. It's been a challenge. Talk to me more about this experience in West Africa. I knew you spent so much time there it's probably very much a part of your culture and but for those of us who haven't had an opportunity, and when I look at these pictures, I just see smiling, happy people who are working with it just looks like a nail, or a screwdriver and a hammer and a steak. And it's just so impressive to me, that the work that's being created, is so immaculate. Can you just talk to us a little bit about that whole experience for in your eyes and want to hear some stories.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, I really feel at home when I'm there. And when you talk about the smile, it's just a happy place. There is always, any workshop we walk into, there is so many people and just talking, smiling, laughing it just a happy place. I really see it as a fantastic. Every trip is just a new experience. But yeah, and the techniques are just stunning. And like you said, using just an old nail to make something so beautiful. I mean, my first experience, and I think that's part of why I've been always back is when I moved to Africa in 96, I moved to Mali.

Matthieu Cheminee:

I was just going there to be with my wife now, but my girlfriend at the time, she was living with her mom. And I was supposed to go and visit for a couple weeks did for almost three years. And she was going to school in Mali. So during the day, I will just take my camera and walk around on the street. And for three years, I really walked the streets. And every time I will meet a jeweler. I was, I had no money at the time, I will just sit with them and they will show me techniques, they will just make me tea, bring me food, it was just this willingness to give and to help, and conversation but at the same time where the conversation the person will make forte bracelet in no time.

Matthieu Cheminee:

And it was just it's part of their, it's almost like part of their DNA, that knowing how to move and transform metal and you see it everywhere. It just take a little piece of silver and transform it into this perfect ring with a hammer, and at the same as you do that you have like three conversation, and just a hammer and a file and they just every time it blows my mind.

Courtney Gray - host:

Definitely impressive that the work that I've seen, I've seen you guys get to get a chance to experience being made and, what's your favorite story about taking tools over to these West African jewelers? Is there one person in particular who just really benefited from that gift?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Wow! That's an odd one, because, there's so many stories about those tools. I mean, one of my favorite is, we were in this little market called Pickin, and it was this Fulani jeweler. And he had this little hole in a wall, blackened from the floor to being inside the shop where he was melting the metal. And so he was not speaking any French, of course in English. So we had a friend with us that was translating. And we gave him tools. And he had probably one hammer, one file and anvil in his shop and his showcase at maybe two little rings. And we gave him tools and no smile. Nothing.

Matthieu Cheminee:

It was just well, okay maybe we insulted him, we felt almost off to have it, give it to him. And he stopped talking to the person with us. And he said, "Can you write a note saying that you're not coming back to ask money for those tools." So he was just he could not believe the fact that, we were just, giving him tools. He was sure we're going to come back and ask for money for it.

Courtney Gray - host:

Right.

Matthieu Cheminee:

And that was just, one of the many. I'm not sure how much it helped him for your question, but it was just showing how much and this happened often where people just never received in their life, a gift. And this happens so many times where they said, that's the first time somebody is giving me something. And so that's I mean, for me, that's always...

Courtney Gray - host:

So powerful.

Matthieu Cheminee:

So powerful. And but one year we gave a young man, [inaudible 00:54:28] in tears, we gave him 30 gram of silver one of the first year we went. And the year after we came back and his showcase was full. And I think we talked about that at one point in another interview with Tim but it was so good. He just we asked him, we said, "Wow! What happened? You have so many pieces." And he's like, "While you gave me 30 gram of silver I made pieces, I sold them, and I reinvest and etcetera." And now he had a full showcase. So, that's another one that really marked me personally.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, well, it's confirmation that you really are making a difference with this action, allowing people to expand what they can offer and what they can make with those tools. What's amazing to think about never getting a gift. And then having somebody just hand you these items. I guess I would be wary too and want some agreement.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, that's it.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, that you got coming back for these are you? That's amazing. And now there's a new school. I mean, you guys are, five or six years into the initiative ever right on the timeline there Matthieu?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah. And there's a new school being created by a gentleman Eghawel Douga. If I'm saying that correctly in Niger.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, exactly. This is a great project. I love it. It's Eghawel is a Tuareg jeweler we met in Senegal. He works a lot in Saly. A lot of the Tuareg jeweler they travel abroad to sell and to work because there's more tourists. Niger and Mali there is almost no tourists right now because of Al-Qaeda and different problem in a region. So they travel away and so that's where we met Eghawel. But with COVID, most of those jeweler just went back home because, they don't have they can be in their village, it's easier, they don't have the rent, that they will have to pay in Senegal, but they were not making any money. So they moved back to their country and Eghawel decided to open a little school for the kids of the village and the village around his village. So we started by sending him some money to build pretty much a tent.

Matthieu Cheminee:

And so he started in the tent, and he had 10 young boys there to start. And slowly the project became to build a building. So we helped him build a building and now it's going to open very soon actually, where half of the building is going to be a school for the boys to learn jewelry making and the other half for young girls to learn leather working. In the Tuareg culture, the jewelers it's a big group. To jewelers it's leather workings, stone sculptures, stone carving, sorry, wood carving to build spoon, bowls, beds, camel seat, etcetera they're all jewelers. But the women in that culture, a woman jeweler actually does leather work, so it's going to be a leather school.

Courtney Gray - host:

Interesting. So the women don't work in metals primarily would say, that's more of a male did the metal smithing and the women did the leather working?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Exactly. It's part of the culture, there is nothing against most of the jewelers I've been talking to, they're totally open for women to do jewelry. It's just the culturally which I think it's important to keep it to not intervene in the culture. So that's why I'm not we're not pushing one way or another. I think it's good for everyone to take their own decision towards their culture.

Courtney Gray - host:

Of course, yeah. And so the building is coming along. This is so exciting. So he started in a tent. And now they are actually constructing with brick and taking donations from Toolbox Initiative that you guys are donating, to create that facility.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah. And, it's a beautiful little building where we just did another post on the Facebook of Toolbox. About that, actually.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, I saw the video of them laying bricks so quickly. And it's amazing what you can do what they're doing with such minimal. Again, minimal materials and minimal funds. I was shocked at the numbers of, $25 for bricks, and this, that and the other. It's unbelievable, to me.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Oh! Yeah, it goes a long way. And that it works well. And on top of it, my mother-in-law just got a job in Niger. And so she left two weeks ago for Niger for a year. And so we took that opportunity to send a lot of tools for that school, so it should arrive very soon.

Courtney Gray - host:

Oh! Wonderful. That's exciting. Very cool. Nice. So like I said, you guys can keep moving even with the challenge that we're facing right now with, not be getting, we can't just jump on a plane like we used to.

Matthieu Cheminee:

No, yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

[crosstalk 00:54:28]. And I love reading too, about how this is not just building a school and educating the next generation there and giving them opportunity like that. It's more about supporting the village and the families who live there, the cooks, that prepare the meals, etcetera. And I just think that's really wonderful that it's, spreading out the benefit there.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, I agree. And also, the person was building the schools and at the market where they buy the wood, it just, it's a nice way to, because of the generosity of all the jewelers that actually send us money.

Courtney Gray - host:

So, talk to us a little bit more about teaching Matthieu, you only hear about a little bit more about your school and what the focus of your school is going to be, and why you educate. Why is this is so important to you to do now in your life?

Matthieu Cheminee:

The school is the main, I always wanted to do school. It's funny, it's a long, it's a really old ideas that I had, to create a school mostly in the countryside. And the idea behind it was more to bring actually, a jeweler from around the world to teach there. And when I first had the idea was to, for me the school is just a way to share techniques. And, if I can show something great, but I love the idea that many people could come and just, maybe a Tuareg from Niger come and show people how it's done for a few months. And that's really what I wanted to do first. Of course, with COVID things change around and, but for the teaching, for me, it's really to be able to show someone how to transform the metal.

Matthieu Cheminee:

I love starting, from scratch all the way to, so that the first project pretty much it's people make a ring and, they make a ring, pretty much any way they want. It could be forged, it could be sand casts. So right away, we really dive into transforming the metal, melting the metal, and using very little, like we talked earlier, a very little tool to actually get somewhere. So before we get into specific techniques, I like the idea of just feeling it and how things can be transformed.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, and working from scratch, like you said, so you're going to be melting the metal, pouring ingots and actually showing people those forging techniques to work from that's pretty unique. I think there's a lot of the way that some educate anyway, is working from sheet metal or something that's already the correct size of wire etcetera. We're a little bit spoiled. But the value and in teaching how to work with the materials and recycle them etcetera, I think is going to be something that really sets you aside. Would you agree?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah. I learned by watching for years, I was just watching, and after, when I went home, try to repeat what I've seen. And then later on in life, I did a school where I learned more traditional techniques in Montreal, where, you sit down and you sew for 120 hours just sewing, and straight line, curve line. And, it made me think but, I don't think there is one way better than the other. But I love the idea of, just applying what you've seen. And that's a little bit what I'm trying to do, a little bit like the, I will not say the African way, but where you take something and transform it. And then later on yes, you spend time cutting and filing. It's hard to explain. It's the, I like the process of discovering in a way. Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

That happens with that time. Yeah, that you put into making something or drawing it out. I think there's a lot of lessons there for sure. It makes total sense. Well, I'm excited for the new school and you're also working on a new book well, hopefully a book right? With the Tuareg jewelers that you've worked with and tell us a little bit about what you got going on there Matthieu.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Okay, so that's like a big research project. It's been in the making for quite a while and all of a sudden with in the last few months, I decided, to jump in it and again, really supported with by Tim, on that project. And I've been always really in love with the Tuareg jewelry, and their technique. I think the Tuareg for me are some of the most efficient jeweler I've ever seen all around the world. The way every movement the Tuareg jeweler will do is, there is not one movement that is not meant. And you can see it how efficient they can transform a piece of silver into this amazing piece of jewelry. And they can and the Tuareg so they work, they used to travel the Sahara on caravan. And so they use very little tool, they did always travel with what they need. So they really have an anvil, and a couple hammer, and old screwdriver to do engraving, and file maybe.

Matthieu Cheminee:

And, so their technique, always I've been just fascinated by it. And I included some Tuareg in both of the books I did so far. But this one, I went through, I have 1000s of picture of Tuareg jewelers techniques, their life throughout the years, but I was missing so much still to make a project that is worth making in the way I thought. So, I've been we sent iPhone to few people in Niger and in Senegal, some Tuareg left in Senegal and then so now, the idea would be to co-author the book with Tuaregs pretty much. Because I'm not I feel like we're all doing it together.

Matthieu Cheminee:

And so I have friends that are doing demonstration of probably 15 to 20 pieces. And, so I am getting picture of all those demos. So and on top of it, it's a way for them to make money right now with COVID there is no money making. So we're paying every demos, and everybody was part of it. So it's a very interesting project. I'm really loving it every day I receive 500 pictures from Senegal, from somebody [inaudible 00:54:28] doing a project, and some picture from the Sahara, the other day I got a little video of a caravan going to Sahara. It's, really exciting.

Courtney Gray - host:

It's so wonderful. And it's really neat that you guys can work on that together with the, again, where there is a use for technology, right?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Especially right now, is that you can send them those cameras and, or iPhones and they just or simply you're able to share a video with you. That's, going to be really exciting to see how that comes together. Matthieu, I know it's a process.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, it's a long process.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, well, writing a book is not done overnight, that's for sure. And The Legacy of Jewelry Techniques of West Africa is another book of Tim's that you guys can check out. It's so beautiful. And the art of stamping, which gives a glimpse into these techniques that Matthieu has really become a master of I would say. How are those going? Are you getting, do you get good feedback on these books? Are they helping, are they producing what you were hoping for people?

Matthieu Cheminee:

I think, yes, they are the stamping book is really getting very good feedback. And, I think it's all because there is amazing artists in it. And, I love the idea of having biography and work of people. And I think that's what make both of those books so valuable at [inaudible 00:54:28], you're getting into the life of those people and seeing the work and stuff. So yeah, I know it's really, I'm very pleased with both of results I'm getting from it.

Courtney Gray - host:

Nice to see them come to life I bet after, the contemplation. And you do your own photography and video work. Is that right, Matthieu? A lot of the video that we get to see of people making in West Africa, etcetera. Is that you behind the camera?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yes. I love filming and I love taking photography. Before doing jewelry, I was, I wanted to be a photographer and so I did a lot of photography. And so yeah, I'm really enjoying it.

Courtney Gray - host:

Get to combine your skill sets and create something really, unique. I think that's wonderful. What are your teaching online now? This is a little off subject, but I'm curious. What your take on teaching online with COVID and post-COVID? And how that's going to all move forward. Do you have anything to share about that? Or a perspective for us?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, I'm really enjoying that new format to some extent. I mean, there is some stuff I'm not so fine about the online teaching, but some of it is to be able to reach so many people that you will not reach if it was not happening. The visa also, I could not go and teach in the states for because sometimes you cannot get visa. So right now, it's with the online process, it's quite easier. And I see it more as a demo than teaching to some extent. Because there is often it's two hours, and then, few days in between and two hours.

Matthieu Cheminee:

So, it's more like I see it more as demos than teaching, I find the teaching part is a little bit harder online, in the sense where, somebody wants to show you what they've done. And if the quality is not so good, you don't even see it. Because of the video and the stream. And so I think as a demo, it's really good as a human connection, it's a little bit harder. I like, when I teach I love the human connection. I love being in that group part where we can all share, where there is live question right away when things are happening. So I'm missing that part a lot online. You feel alone at your bench. But it's a fantastic way to keep going. That's for sure.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, I mean, thank goodness, we have imagined, without the technology, the ability to jump on a Zoom or see family, etcetera at least through screen, I think is we're pretty lucky that we have all of that in place, when something like this is going on. But I think it's really, personally, I think it's going to change the way people learn a little bit. And are you seeing your students have success? I know, it's hard to see what they're doing. And is there a difference in the success rate of your students being online or being in person?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, I am. It's different. I mean, I've seen things that students sent me afterwards pictures and video and, really good stuff. So yes, I do see success for sure. There is always I find what's missing. It's really the, which I think, some people said, maybe we'll just move to Zoom forever. But I think that the doing person thing is so different. And it's so valuable to be able to, even when you show someone how to file, to be able to hold the file and really feel it or. So I think that again, there is room for all of it probably after work.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, absolutely. And what do you, I want to ask you a little bit about you personally, Matthieu, before we let you go today, and how do you define, this is going to be a big one. You ready?

Matthieu Cheminee:

I'll try that.

Courtney Gray - host:

No, don't let it overwhelm you. But I'm just curious for you, how you define success. Do you feel successful maker in metal smith?

Matthieu Cheminee:

No, how I think success for me and yes, I do feel success. And how I define it is to be able to do what you love, and to be able to make a living from what you love and that's success. So yes, I really feel in that sense. I feel really successful. I spend all my life trying to do that is to really to follow my heart and to go always the step further. Things just happen. I find when you follow what you have to do it just happens. And I've been blessed that's what happened. And yes. So, I do feel very successful in that part.

Courtney Gray - host:

I love how you put that. Was there one particular struggle or event that was a setback for you in building your creative business?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, I think, it's not going to be a good one. But I think what's changed everything in my life was to, I taught for eight years in a school in Montreal and full time salary was great. But I realized that it actually slowly killed me and killed my, wanted to make jewelry, when you work full time, you don't have the energy to make jewelry. And at one point, I just, realized that, do I want to make jewelry, or do I want to teach full time in a governmental school? And I think that was in a way it was. It's hard to say no, it was not a setback because I learned so much from teaching, even if it was the same program by repeating the same thing for eight years. It actually learned a lot, but it was a liberation when I stopped. So I always felt it was maybe a setback. But now that I talk about it, it was I needed that to happen to get where I am today. So yeah, maybe now, I don't see it then as setback sorry.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It's more part of the process.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah. Well, without that, experience you... Each thing leads us to the next I guess.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, exactly.

Courtney Gray - host:

Well Matthieu, this is so wonderful. Is there anything else that you can think of that you'd like to share, about your experience in the craft, anything you'd want to share with somebody who maybe is just getting into it?

Matthieu Cheminee:

I think, for me, when you get into it, and I got that from, it's funny. Both of my parents passed away when I was in my early 30s, one after another. And at that time in life, I went to see someone to talk about, I was just, they both die from cancer. And so I was always worried about cancer in any way, I went to see someone and we talked. And at that time in life, my style of jewelry was a little bit all over the place, I was actually trying, to please people, instead of pleasing myself. And, so I talked to that person, and she said, "You know what? For a year, just do one style, stop trying to move around and just do one thing, concentrate on one thing." And that actually changed my life. It's when I really went into stamping full time. And I was just keeping doing the same thing. And I think, it's what I want to say to all those young makers is to just find your way and push it forward. Just be patient and just push it forward. And you will succeed.

Courtney Gray - host:

I love that and be okay with a couple of hiccups along the road, right?

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah, exactly. But really, to just try to keep it forward for a while and just see where it leads you.

Courtney Gray - host:

I feel like a lot of people put so much pressure on themselves to be successful, or to create really impressive work in the beginning. And I don't perceive jewelry as being one of those that you just jump into and write the opera. So to speak where, create your masterpiece right away. It's a process, right?

Matthieu Cheminee:

It is a big process. Yeah. And also to be open, I mean, to share really, and to, we have a tendency in North America, in general to just beef in ourselves and thinking we have secret. And I think we don't. It's just by sharing, the more you share, the more will come to you as well. So I think it's important to just be open and sharing and then things comes to you.

Courtney Gray - host:

And when you get back, you get to see other people's techniques especially. Know that's just such a big thing and your world Matthieu, with what you do and travels and being able to see, how is this certain region approaching the work? And, then coming back to North America, is there a culture shock that happens to you in that process? I'm curious.

Matthieu Cheminee:

I always have a shock when I come back to North America. Must be when I lived in Mali for three years. It was very hard to come back and live in Canada for quite a while. But yeah, it's just, I've been quite blessed to be able, to move around and to men, I've met so many really fantastic people. And, I feel very lucky that I met Tim, which that was quite a change in my life. And yeah, I'm very thankful to him for everything.

Courtney Gray - host:

Well, Tim's just everybody's mentor. I loved him so much. He's a wonderful person, very humbled. I find that to be a commonality too, with makers. It's, like you said. How is Tim answering his phone, doesn't he have a secretary or? I think what people, what I would hope that people start to realize is, these are the mentors and they are available. Many of them are making themselves available to you taking a class with them or even having a phone call. I'm not saying blow up Tim Mcreight's phone, you guys, but I say reach out, social media and ask questions. There's a whole community that is in my eyes very accessible in this craft.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Yeah. I mean. I agree very surprising. I mean lots of people, I mean Charles lewton-Brain, Alan Revere. They all just always there to help. And it's quite amazing.

Courtney Gray - host:

Yeah. Well, that's the whole point here, guys. We're so excited to have this format to share with you all and to, again, connect you with those that you may be curious about their approach. And we invite you to stay tuned in with us. Matthieu, thank you so much for taking time out and great to connect with you. All the way in Canada.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Thank you so much for having me.

Courtney Gray - host:

Absolutely. And you guys, stay tuned to the Toolbox Initiative. Matthieu Cheminee ads, make sure you keep in touch with his classes that will be coming up online and in person and yeah, onward and upward. Thank you again, Matthieu.

Matthieu Cheminee:

Thank you.